Before Ron replies - yes, it's a problem that the power/weight math tries to accommodate tweaked B-Spec cars.
K
Last edited by Knestis; 09-13-2014 at 08:14 AM.
Logic fale: my cohort has fallen into the trap!
Nope. As I recall the conversation, it was to give the 1.5L cars a chance to make minimum weight, with the idea that B-Spec cars may gradually migrate to STL once their usefulness is past.
I remember it vividly, as I had just finished spending a winter cutting out sh*t and replacing panels with plastic to lose 90# to get down exactly to the pound to my minimum 2340# weight with an empty fuel tank with me in it...and then we added 90# to my car...I now carry 100# of ballast in the back of the car to make 2430#...damn you Nemesis!!!
seeing as the lemons 1g crx you and I drive, gutted to crap, weighs 1730, and we have glass , big battery, and bumper bars, and all steel body, I bet it could....the 1.3l 12v head sucks though, and I bet you couldn't get 125whp out of a max effort motor without insane porting, custom intake, and wild comrpression, all not legal...
while thinking about this dumb 1.5l d series I just built, I looked at all the SMALLER honda motors, and they all have almost nothing going for them.....AND parts are all custom.
I think my d15 will be competative, especially with the results I got from V1 , power-wise, and I still want to do .040/crank scraper/ coatings/ slightly bigger cam/not ancient injectors for v2.....(my cam is biggest regrind he could do, lift is only .390 or something though)
I think I can force another 5-10 whp out of v2, but intake manifold is the choker.
I think the only "smaller" Honda motors id even consider are the newer 1.4L d series sold overseas, as they have the same "better" heads we have here, but you'd get a non-usdm weight penalty
and I still need to get another 75+ lbs out !
Last edited by adamjabaay; 09-13-2014 at 08:44 AM.
Greg,
so no replacement for displacement? since your own car saw gains with the change of the 1.7 to 1.8L plus weight last year, have you thought much of going to 2.0? Or do you that's too heavy for the chassis/brakes/bearings, etc?
1985 CRX Si competed in Solo II: AS, CS, DS, GS
1986 CRX Si competed in: SCCA Solo II CSP, SCCA ITA, SCCA ITB, NASA H5
1988 CRX Si competed in ITA & STL
Not to dissuade lower-displacement efforts -- I'm really looking forward to Adam's efforts -- but it just seems that in STL higher-horsepower wins. Equal horsepower will go to the better chassis (e.g., Miata, RX-8, etc). If you have both then you're invincible. Granted, it's Road America, but in the last two Runoffs I predicted the order of finish based solely on estimated horsepower, and I've been correct. I predict the podium for Laguna Seca will go to the highest-horsepower cars this year as well, with more nods to sports cars*.
I could install a K20 in my Integra - there's bolt-on kits for it - but it's still a lot of work, and a lot of expense. I don't mind the work but I'm pretty much done spending any more significant development time for STL; I just don't think I can afford to compete at the pointy end of that money tree. I'll continue doing some lower-end tuning and enjoy competing/driving instead.
GA
* Haven't given it detailed thought, but leading candidates are Jim Drago in the 1.8L Miata, Robert Schader in the 2L MX-5, Brian Laughlin in the 1.8L Miata, Oscar Jackson in the Miata (noticing a theme here...?) Leading FWD candidates are Brian Shanfield in the 2L Civic, Cliff Ira in the 1.8L Integra, and I see there's another CA-based driver in a 2L Civic; the latter is interesting simply because he probably has experience at the track.
There's a lot of unknown-to-me in there, folks that race on the West Coast; they'll have home field advantage. And you might see some strong 2L FWD cars at the pointy end, especially those in the FG Civics, which have the better suspension. But in the end, I predict the pointy end of the Runoffs will be sporty cars - let's just say it: Miatas - with some higher-powered FWD cars sprinkled in there for good luck.
Me? I'll take that 1.7 liters of pure Honda FWD fury and enjoy the HELL out of a track I've wanted to race for a long time. And beer. Lots of beer.
I'll leave this here one more time:
Please do NOT use interior volume or frontal area or some generic description of a 'sports car' to handicap cars. Those items may be teeny-tiny factors but as some have said above, it's HP above all that wins. Then go down the list after that.
What people are really afraid of (in it's true definition) is a configuration of front AND rear double wishbones. The cars that can outhandle anything are equipped as such. Miata, S2000, RX8. Use this as a starting point for CA's IF you feel like you have to (or need to) after you get the HP situation in line.
I'm not trying to 'make it count', I am trying to influence those who race in the class or who may be thinking about it, when it comes time for them to 'make it count'.
This points to the failure of the straight weight/displacement method of determining competitiveness. So, I'd argue that other than classing the not otherwise classed, it's time to move on to spec lines for at least motors, and leave the reminder of the modifiers in place. Maybe even make a flow chart so that Tech has a coherent way to check ultimate weight.
I put this in my request #14859.
Don't forget that in GT/Production the open cars get to remove their windshield's and have asymmetrical cages to minimize air drag and top weight. So the ST spec roadster (even with a hard top) would be slower than the GT/Production version. Prather has the data to prove it as well.
http://prodracing.com/prodcar/viewto...15691&start=10
Last edited by Z3_GoCar; 09-14-2014 at 11:49 AM.
STU BMW Z3 2.5liter
Which compounds this problem if you allow 'sports cars' better aero. So what is Prod doing to compensate? I think the baseline knowledge is there already.
EP has the perfect example in three cars that share the same displacement motors, the e36 sedan/Z3/and Z4
e36 325 sedan - 2525lbs
e36 Z3 2.5l - 2450lbs -> 75lbs lighter
Z4 2.5l - 2550lbs -> 25lbs heavier
then there's the:
e36 328 sedan - 2725lbs
Z3 2.8l - 2650lbs -> 75lbs lighter
There's two thing going on, first the Z3 has semi trialing arm rear suspension instead of the multi-link that the sedan and Z4 have, so roadster aero with the removed windshield net 25lbs, with the hard top you still get the 25lbs but aren't competitive. but the semi-trailing arm rear suspension gets a 100lb weight break for the net 75lbs removed. I'd argue that in the case of a ST Z3 it should have the full 100lbs removed because I can't take advantage of removing the windshield and using a roadster cage.
Net the reason that Miatae/Rx8 are taking names in STL has more to do with the power plant and suspension than roadster/sportcar aero.
STU BMW Z3 2.5liter
Greg will get the chance to race a fast CRX at the runoffs, although when I talked to Paul at his first race with us he was running a 1.6 dual cam. But he was competitive with the best of the uncorked SM's from Rush.
The answer for me is 242hp. That's what I got, we'll see if that's competitive with the S-2k at 2550lbs (he added a sequential just because,) I think they're at that power but with 200lbs less Then there's the turbo version of the 2.5 that's got 270 at the wheel at 2550lbs. Yeah, I don't think the "Turbo" problem is fixed yet, they need to add another 200lbs, and take 200 off me.
STU BMW Z3 2.5liter
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