What is a "touring car?"

[Z3_GoCar]

Not to dissuade lower-displacement efforts -- I'm really looking forward to Adam's efforts -- but it just seems that in STL higher-horsepower wins. Equal horsepower will go to the better chassis (e.g., Miata, RX-8, etc). If you have both then you're invincible. Granted, it's Road America, but in the last two Runoffs I predicted the order of finish based solely on estimated horsepower, and I've been correct. I predict the podium for Laguna Seca will go to the highest-horsepower cars this year as well, with more nods to sports cars*....

This points to the failure of the straight weight/displacement method of determining competitiveness. So, I'd argue that other than classing the not otherwise classed, it's time to move on to spec lines for at least motors, and leave the reminder of the modifiers in place. Maybe even make a flow chart so that Tech has a coherent way to check ultimate weight.

I put this in my request #14859.

WRT the 'what do you think', I also need to be more educated on what the SCCA has done in the past. STL has the same 'issue' as other classes. I bet EP and FP also have the same 'issue'. Getting some success stories from the Prod ranks on how they have attempted to balance Miata's, Preludes, 240Z's, Integra's, 2002's, S2000's, RX8's, Caterham's, 914's, 944's etc.

Seems like the concepts may already live inside the CRB.

Don't forget that in GT/Production the open cars get to remove their windshield's and have asymmetrical cages to minimize air drag and top weight. So the ST spec roadster (even with a hard top) would be slower than the GT/Production version. Prather has the data to prove it as well.

http://prodracing.com/prodcar/viewto...15691&start=10

[Andy Bettencourt]

Which compounds this problem if you allow 'sports cars' better aero. So what is Prod doing to compensate? I think the baseline knowledge is there already.

[Z3_GoCar]

Which compounds this problem if you allow 'sports cars' better aero. So what is Prod doing to compensate? I think the baseline knowledge is there already.

EP has the perfect example in three cars that share the same displacement motors, the e36 sedan/Z3/and Z4

e36 325 sedan - 2525lbs
e36 Z3 2.5l - 2450lbs -> 75lbs lighter
Z4 2.5l - 2550lbs -> 25lbs heavier

then there's the:

e36 328 sedan - 2725lbs
Z3 2.8l - 2650lbs -> 75lbs lighter

There's two thing going on, first the Z3 has semi trialing arm rear suspension instead of the multi-link that the sedan and Z4 have, so roadster aero with the removed windshield net 25lbs, with the hard top you still get the 25lbs but aren't competitive. but the semi-trailing arm rear suspension gets a 100lb weight break for the net 75lbs removed. I'd argue that in the case of a ST Z3 it should have the full 100lbs removed because I can't take advantage of removing the windshield and using a roadster cage.
Net the reason that Miatae/Rx8 are taking names in STL has more to do with the power plant and suspension than roadster/sportcar aero.

[Knestis]

Anyone who thinks 25 pounds - or even 75 pounds - is enough to make a repeatable difference, let alone serve as a purposeful "competition adjustment," is demented.

K

[Ron Earp]

Anyone who thinks 25 pounds - or even 75 pounds - is enough to make a repeatable difference, let alone serve as a purposeful "competition adjustment," is demented.K

Truth.

[Z3_GoCar]

Then you have STU's 50lb weight break for solid rear axle cars, and 50lb weight penalty for alternate rear suspension for solid axle/semi-trailing arms. Seems it's already in writing. It seems Greg's observation on the final order is based more on motor output than on what it's wrapped in.

[Knestis]

I didn't say it wasn't common practice; I said it's an act of the demented.

Greg's picks are dominated by sports cars with the most powerful engine eligible. Why? Because people willing to spend coin to try to run up front understand that's the formula for success. Why would anyone do otherwise given the physics of the situation?

My proposition was that, particularly with the human beings we have at the levers of policy, a sports car is going to have an inherent advantage over a touring with the SAME engine.

K