What is a "touring car?"

[Andy Bettencourt]

Which compounds this problem if you allow 'sports cars' better aero. So what is Prod doing to compensate? I think the baseline knowledge is there already.

[Z3_GoCar]

Which compounds this problem if you allow 'sports cars' better aero. So what is Prod doing to compensate? I think the baseline knowledge is there already.

EP has the perfect example in three cars that share the same displacement motors, the e36 sedan/Z3/and Z4

e36 325 sedan - 2525lbs
e36 Z3 2.5l - 2450lbs -> 75lbs lighter
Z4 2.5l - 2550lbs -> 25lbs heavier

then there's the:

e36 328 sedan - 2725lbs
Z3 2.8l - 2650lbs -> 75lbs lighter

There's two thing going on, first the Z3 has semi trialing arm rear suspension instead of the multi-link that the sedan and Z4 have, so roadster aero with the removed windshield net 25lbs, with the hard top you still get the 25lbs but aren't competitive. but the semi-trailing arm rear suspension gets a 100lb weight break for the net 75lbs removed. I'd argue that in the case of a ST Z3 it should have the full 100lbs removed because I can't take advantage of removing the windshield and using a roadster cage.
Net the reason that Miatae/Rx8 are taking names in STL has more to do with the power plant and suspension than roadster/sportcar aero.

[Knestis]

Anyone who thinks 25 pounds - or even 75 pounds - is enough to make a repeatable difference, let alone serve as a purposeful "competition adjustment," is demented.

K

[Ron Earp]

Anyone who thinks 25 pounds - or even 75 pounds - is enough to make a repeatable difference, let alone serve as a purposeful "competition adjustment," is demented.K

Truth.

[Z3_GoCar]

Then you have STU's 50lb weight break for solid rear axle cars, and 50lb weight penalty for alternate rear suspension for solid axle/semi-trailing arms. Seems it's already in writing. It seems Greg's observation on the final order is based more on motor output than on what it's wrapped in.

[Knestis]

I didn't say it wasn't common practice; I said it's an act of the demented.

Greg's picks are dominated by sports cars with the most powerful engine eligible. Why? Because people willing to spend coin to try to run up front understand that's the formula for success. Why would anyone do otherwise given the physics of the situation?

My proposition was that, particularly with the human beings we have at the levers of policy, a sports car is going to have an inherent advantage over a touring with the SAME engine.

K

[JeffYoung]

I didn't say it wasn't common practice; I said it's an act of the demented.

Greg's picks are dominated by sports cars with the most powerful engine eligible. Why? Because people willing to spend coin to try to run up front understand that's the formula for success. Why would anyone do otherwise given the physics of the situation?

My proposition was that, particularly with the human beings we have at the levers of policy, a sports car is going to have an inherent advantage over a touring with the SAME engine.

K

But with all due respect, that's due to assumptions that CG is lower, that CD is lower, and that frontal area is smaller. That MAY be the case, or it may not. My gut non-scientific observation is that Miatas don't draft as well as Integras, and over 120 mphish (again, total observation bias here) the Integra has the advantage. But without numbers it is all guess work.

Which is the problem with trying to quantify difficult "effects" like aero, or torque, or "bad rear suspension" (as the owner of a live rear axle car, I frankly couldn't justify giving it a break against most stuff out there given what we can do with the rules in IT) -- it's just WAY above our skill level to do so in my opinion.

I would, however, really like to see numbers on aero, real CD x Frontal area numbers, of sedans/coupes v. sports cars. I'm sure some sports cars do quite well. I'm also pretty sure some coupes/sedans do as well.

Was at Homestead this weekend, was down there for work Friday and stayed and rented Mike VS's ITS Miata. Ran with the STL cars -- I think there were 5 dedicated STL cars. Two twin Celica GTSes, an Integra (Peter Keane?) and two Miatas. The Celicas were pretty. Peter's car is black and looks bad ass.