What is a "touring car?"

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally Posted by Knestis

The way things are headed right now, absent any intervention, the future is STL populated with modded Miatas. Why would anyone build anything else at this point?

I reject this statement.

There is exactly one, ONE uber-prepped and driven Miata in STL. It has a National Champ driver as it's pilot. Is this setting a trend? The fields are double dippers, not track record setters. Yes, we (FOM) like to build our own stuff and don't have a customer who wants to drop the coin to develop the BP 1.8 into what it needs so we went with what we knew, a trick 13B conversion. Plenty quick but limited in it's development for power. Given it's power to weight, I am not sure it would smash any solid records. Maybe Steve E can find us 15whp!

Maybe we will see 20 Drago-prepped STL cars out there soon. But I'd like to see the other stuff keep coming. Greg has proven you can podium at a Major and is as fast as our 13B car.

[Greg Amy]

Greg has proven you can podium at a Major and is as fast as our 13B car.

I reject this statement. I had to work my ass off to get there, whereas as Jon made several big mistakes (missed shifts, overcooking corners/braking) and was able to easily move back to the fore and pass without issue. Just compare my front and rear views of him coming up on me and going into corners, versus my unable to come up on him on the straights. Had Jon not made those mistakes he would have been right up there in the front, possibly for the win.

That aside...it's a trend Andy, anyone paying attention can see it. Kirk is not using single examples to make general conclusions, he's using general trends to make single conclusions. How is it that Spec Miatas are able to fill out the middle of the field, to the point where they're beating almost all non-Miatas (the few there are)? Hell, Gorriaran was chewing on my ass on Saturday at WGI, despite my easy 50hp advantage; only reason he wasn't doing it Sunday is because he went home (along with a large chunk of the other SM'ers, leaving the top third of our class pretty empty).

And if double-dippers (who are not serious about the class such that they're leaving before the race) are taking away positions from legit STL competitors, how is that good for the class? And if it's not good for the class, why should we promote it? I'd gladly give up the 4th in participation numbers in order to improve the competition among legit, serious STL competitors. And I've been quite public that I'd rather the class stand or fall based on legit competitors, versus falsely riding a wave of double-dippers.

Chicken or egg?

GA, always amused at how "most competitors have excuses on why they lost...Miatas always have excuses on why they won."

[Andy Bettencourt]

I reject this statement. I had to work my ass off to get there, whereas as Jon made several big mistakes (missed shifts, overcooking corners/braking) and was able to easily move back to the fore and pass without issue. Just compare my front and rear views of him coming up on me and going into corners, versus my unable to come up on him on the straights. Had Jon not made those mistakes he would have been right up there in the front, possibly for the win.

Your fast lap bested his?

That aside...it's a trend Andy, anyone paying attention can see it. Kirk is not using single examples to make general conclusions, he's using general trends to make single conclusions.

What trends? The fact 2 really well prepared full-on STL cars are getting to the podium against 3 other cars? What about Shanfeld's Civic? No mention of that performance yet. Qualified .002 behind Drago in Q1 and ahead of him in Q2. Drago won race 1 by .290 over Shanfeld (who ran a faster lap time). In the second race, Drago again bested Shanfeld this time by 2.987 seconds and also had the fastest lap just over .2. Your fast laps in both races were faster than the 13B Miata.

How is it that Spec Miatas are able to fill out the middle of the field, to the point where they're beating almost all non-Miatas (the few there are)? Hell, Gorriaran was chewing on my ass on Saturday at WGI, despite my easy 50hp advantage; only reason he wasn't doing it Sunday is because he went home (along with a large chunk of the other SM'ers, leaving the top third of our class pretty empty).

At the Glen there were 4 non-Miata. 1 got crashed out and 2 were in the top 4. Trend?

2400lb SM's with 120whp too fast? You out qualified him by a second each day. Shanfeld's Civic was 3 seconds quicker in qualifying than any SM and 2.5 seconds quicker per lap in the race.

And if double-dippers (who are not serious about the class such that they're leaving before the race) are taking away positions from legit STL competitors, how is that good for the class? And if it's not good for the class, why should we promote it? I'd gladly give up the 4th in participation numbers in order to improve the competition among legit, serious STL competitors. And I've been quite public that I'd rather the class stand or fall based on legit competitors, versus falsely riding a wave of double-dippers.

You can't take away a spot from a legit competitor if you don't show up to race. Looking at the numbers, STL is third in participation behind SRF and SM. If 20% of the fields were real STL cars and ZERO double dippers, STL would be 2nd from the bottom with about 61 entries Nationwide. I'm ok with that but hardly a ringing endorsement of success just above B-Spec.

GA, always amused at how "most competitors have excuses on why they lost...Miatas always have excuses on why they won."

AB, always amused at how fast 'some give up when they see a Miata on grid no matter what like cars are doing'

Seriously though, I see a wickedly fast Miata and a wickedly fast Civic right on top of each other battling for top Q spot, fast laps and race wins. And I mean RIGHT ON TOP OF EACH OTHER. A trend it is not in my mind. Will I always think that a light, balanced and DW-equipped car will make a better racecar than a FWD car? You bet, but that's why they currently weigh 5.5% more than good FWDers and 8% more than strut FWDers.

[Greg Amy]

Andy, I'm not gonna blow-by-blow you. No insult intended but you weren't there, all you have is finishing results and a couple of videos. Come spend some time with us at the track (we actually do miss you; well, at least the chance to bust your stones...) and watch with us.

You remind me a lot of George Roffe in the early-aughts. We kept talking (on this board and elsewhere) about how f*****g fast the E36 BMWs were in ITS, and George was always all about "but look at the results! Look at the lap times! Hey, look, Joe DiMinno won ITS at Watkins Glen in a Sentra!" and we were all about "hey, dude, come to the track with us." Then one year George went to the ARRC and came back home all "Jeesum krist those cars a f*****g FAST!!!" and the next year (or so) we had SIRs on 'em...

Ain't nuthin' like being there, brother...

GA

[Knestis]

Rory makes some good points, that helped clarify some things for me.

Despite the fact that I don't think "field fillers" are a good policy solution, the concept of SMs (and IT) running in STL doesn't really give me any major concern. They should, indeed, not be competitive. And the "fun to race with while developing" point is a good one. I said the same thing when explaining to someone (Eric maybe) about why I chose the Civic in STL over continuing with the STU Jetta.

It WAS helpful to be reminded that the question about 2-seaters in PROPERLY PREPARED STL CARS is a separate issue from the SM/IT crossover allowance. Basic chassis architecture of "real" cars built for the class is the primary issue I'm worried about, and it's one that I still think we might nip in the bud when only a few cars in the nation actually qualify as such.

Also (because it seems to have been assumed somewhere along the line) please note that I don't think the "touring" model has got be exclusively FWD. We should be able to quantify and accommodate with adjusters the differences there. The sum contribution of being an entirely different type of tub, not so much.

Andy - with respect, you're making some pretty broad generalizations here based on one race. None of my arguments are based on lap times.

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

I am refuting the idea that 'if STL keeps trending the way it is then it's going to be all Miata's'.

Ya, I wasn't there but I can read. 2 qualifiers and 2 races worth of Major shows me that a Civic can run WITH the fastest STL Miata in the country.

The only thing trending is that SM guys use STL as a place to tune for their SM race...and if they are faster than any STL car, there is work to do there. The best STL cars are a mega-ton faster than the best SM cars...or at least they were on a decent track with decent drivers.

Kirk, if you want STL to 'look' like something, I am all for it. But like I said, what you will have left over is the second weakest subscribed class in the SCCA. And those who 'will build it' when the Miata's are gone, simply aren't looking hard enough at what a non-Miata has already done and are using that as an excuse IMHO.

I think the STAC is close to balance right now. Maybe another tweak if more info comes to light but I see parity.

YMMV.

[Z3_GoCar]

The vast majority of SM guys in STL out here are there because they won't get enough points to qualify in SM for the Runoffs. So to qualify for a class, any class, they can race in and earn a decent number of points and qualify for the big race that the other class they're going to race in.

In addition to removing the allowances that Eric had to make STU more cost competitive, I'd add get rid of Forced Induction or at least throw another 300 lbs on a given size TIR. When you make both more power and torque and weight 200lbs less, there's something wrong.

[Flyinglizard]

A Touring car has 4 real seats. The 2 seat 4 seat performance difference is mostly the sum of windshield angle and vertical CG ratio to track.
The CRX/Civic perform about 100# apart as do the VW Scirocco/Rabbit. Both cars are about 6in lower than the sedan version and turn better as a result.
For the ST cars there are no direct comparison RWD cars. (Lotus 7 and Lotus Cortina? ) Maybe the Miata and Ford escort GT?
The Miata are very well driven,and can out perform their expectations due to the best drivers trail braking to the apex. Not many FWD cars can do that.
The miata can sustain very high lateral grip values that taller cars cant due to overheated outer (front) tires. The notes about WGI with breaking parts and high G loads is common in the T5, T6 and toe turns- the banking adds a lot of loading that the Miata loves. 1.5-1.6 is common there. The feel of the Miata is very solid, while the sedan is more like HS I'm gunna punch that outer tire wall evry lap.
I dont see why the class exist either.