What is a "touring car?"

[Knestis]

Rory makes some good points, that helped clarify some things for me.

Despite the fact that I don't think "field fillers" are a good policy solution, the concept of SMs (and IT) running in STL doesn't really give me any major concern. They should, indeed, not be competitive. And the "fun to race with while developing" point is a good one. I said the same thing when explaining to someone (Eric maybe) about why I chose the Civic in STL over continuing with the STU Jetta.

It WAS helpful to be reminded that the question about 2-seaters in PROPERLY PREPARED STL CARS is a separate issue from the SM/IT crossover allowance. Basic chassis architecture of "real" cars built for the class is the primary issue I'm worried about, and it's one that I still think we might nip in the bud when only a few cars in the nation actually qualify as such.

Also (because it seems to have been assumed somewhere along the line) please note that I don't think the "touring" model has got be exclusively FWD. We should be able to quantify and accommodate with adjusters the differences there. The sum contribution of being an entirely different type of tub, not so much.

Andy - with respect, you're making some pretty broad generalizations here based on one race. None of my arguments are based on lap times.

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

I am refuting the idea that 'if STL keeps trending the way it is then it's going to be all Miata's'.

Ya, I wasn't there but I can read. 2 qualifiers and 2 races worth of Major shows me that a Civic can run WITH the fastest STL Miata in the country.

The only thing trending is that SM guys use STL as a place to tune for their SM race...and if they are faster than any STL car, there is work to do there. The best STL cars are a mega-ton faster than the best SM cars...or at least they were on a decent track with decent drivers.

Kirk, if you want STL to 'look' like something, I am all for it. But like I said, what you will have left over is the second weakest subscribed class in the SCCA. And those who 'will build it' when the Miata's are gone, simply aren't looking hard enough at what a non-Miata has already done and are using that as an excuse IMHO.

I think the STAC is close to balance right now. Maybe another tweak if more info comes to light but I see parity.

YMMV.

[Z3_GoCar]

The vast majority of SM guys in STL out here are there because they won't get enough points to qualify in SM for the Runoffs. So to qualify for a class, any class, they can race in and earn a decent number of points and qualify for the big race that the other class they're going to race in.

In addition to removing the allowances that Eric had to make STU more cost competitive, I'd add get rid of Forced Induction or at least throw another 300 lbs on a given size TIR. When you make both more power and torque and weight 200lbs less, there's something wrong.

[Flyinglizard]

A Touring car has 4 real seats. The 2 seat 4 seat performance difference is mostly the sum of windshield angle and vertical CG ratio to track.
The CRX/Civic perform about 100# apart as do the VW Scirocco/Rabbit. Both cars are about 6in lower than the sedan version and turn better as a result.
For the ST cars there are no direct comparison RWD cars. (Lotus 7 and Lotus Cortina? ) Maybe the Miata and Ford escort GT?
The Miata are very well driven,and can out perform their expectations due to the best drivers trail braking to the apex. Not many FWD cars can do that.
The miata can sustain very high lateral grip values that taller cars cant due to overheated outer (front) tires. The notes about WGI with breaking parts and high G loads is common in the T5, T6 and toe turns- the banking adds a lot of loading that the Miata loves. 1.5-1.6 is common there. The feel of the Miata is very solid, while the sedan is more like HS I'm gunna punch that outer tire wall evry lap.
I dont see why the class exist either.

[Jeremy Billiel]

We all know Miata's are a fantastic car where the sum of its parts create a supurb racing platform. Isn't it going to be true that ANY multi-marquee class racing the miata will win all things being equal?

Isn't the only way to handle this situation, regardless of class, to dis-advantage the miata in some means? (weight, restrictors, etc?)

I don't see STL being any different that ITA, etc...

[Andy Bettencourt]

We all know Miata's are a fantastic car where the sum of its parts create a supurb racing platform. Isn't it going to be true that ANY multi-marquee class racing the miata will win all things being equal?

Isn't the only way to handle this situation, regardless of class, to dis-advantage the miata in some means? (weight, restrictors, etc?)

I don't see STL being any different that ITA, etc...

Already happening, no? 5.5% more weight than a FWD car with double wishbones and 8% more weight than a FWD car with struts.

2731lbs for the 13B powered Miata
2635lbs for a BP powered 1.8 Miata
2430 for a 1.8L double wishbone FWDer
2370 for a 1.8 strut FWDer

All on the same 225 width tire.

The question is simple, are these weight differences sufficient given what we are seeing in the results? What do you think Jeremy?

[Jeremy Billiel]

Already happening, no? 5.5% more weight than a FWD car with double wishbones and 8% more weight than a FWD car with struts.

2731lbs for the 13B powered Miata
2635lbs for a BP powered 1.8 Miata
2430 for a 1.8L double wishbone FWDer
2370 for a 1.8 strut FWDer

All on the same 225 width tire.

The question is simple, are these weight differences sufficient given what we are seeing in the results? What do you think Jeremy?

I personally don't think 5.5% is enough difference between a FWD and RWD car with double wishbones.

I think we need a Miata multiplier! If Miata, then add an additional 3% to the calculation (or something....) Edit 1: I am just making up numbers and have ZERO data - Just throwing something against the wall

Edit 2: And I say that being out of racing for 4+ years and no longer having a dog in this fight or honestly caring.... I simply think that the car is a fantastic package and not sure how to equalize apprpriately...

Edit 3: 5.5% may be fine for double wishbone cars that are RWD and not a miata. Its the specific car (miata) that seems to be what breaks all the logic.