Order of cars going out for qualifying

[Ed Funk]

$$$$ for your spot....highest bidder wins. Bucks go to worker awards or Racing Against Leukemia. If it's so effin' important, put up or shut up.

[gran racing]

It's not so effn' important; I've done just fine without it. Just don't want to be stuck behind some slow CRX.

Obviously many people believe there is a competitive advantage to getting their nice and early hence securing a spot out front. Gotta think about the tracks which is why I posted this in the NER area. Watkins Glen, Road Atlanta, even Summit it's a bit less of an issue. Lime Rock?

I don't think doing a random pick from a hat adds that much extra work. Maybe the grid workers would even find it fun?

It does take a lot of stress out of the weekend, for organizers, volunteers, and drivers.

That's from the folks that actually organize this and do it now. Again, not a big issue but thought it was an idea implemented by other regions that I enjoyed while racing with them. Doesn't hurt to at least look at what other regions are doing when customers are liking the addition to the product.

[Andy Bettencourt]

It's for sure the way I am fastest with the least possibility for damage. Every lap you are out there in traffic is a chance to get caught up in an incident. I go out first, take 3-4 flyers, make sure I am at where I need to be, come in get tire pressures adjusted and find a hole for as many non-traffic laps as I can get. As soon as I hit any traffic after that I am done. Usually on take 6-7 qualifying laps.

Again, not seeing an actual problem until Grid tells us there is one. But if it turns out to be an issue then change it. Just get Grid's buy in because they will have to administer.

[Matt93SE]

So let me get this straight.. nobody wants traffic during qualifying because they gotta get a fast lap in, yet you're going to be on a sub 1:00 track with 30 of your closest friends? How many laps do you get before you're fighting with the also-rans? sure, passing is going to be more difficult while qualifying but it's part of short-track racing, no?

(Yes, I like kicking the beehive.)

[gran racing]

I absolutely love traffic during a race and don't mind it in qualifying when my competitors are facing the same challenge. The reason (I believe) some regions including the WDCR does this is to make things more equitable. Yes, there's an advantage to going out first. If you don't think there is, let me go out in front.

Andy, I just see this as a way for competitors not having to rush to grid or be watching others to ensure they get their earlier. I know that I pay attention as do you.

If I were in SM, I'd be there as early as it took. Same with SSM in WDCR.

[ajmr2]

Years ago the MARRS series tolerated the paddock pre grid thing, but changed to the current procedure due to safety concerns and the need to keep those roads clear and speeds down. I personally find it excellent. Our normal qualifying procedure is that we line up according to the predetermined list, but the grid folks certainly don't mind it since it's the same as their race grid procedure. The ITS guys line up first and the rest of us behind. We are immediately given a green flag as we come out of pit out, and those ITS guys normally come around pretty quickly. I don't waste time scubbing tires since we only need one good lap, which for me usually comes in the 2nd half of the session if I have a little luck and keep an eye in my mirrors. I have rarely heard anyone complain about it.

[MMiskoe]

I don't think doing a random pick from a hat adds that much extra work.

So you'll be taking care of it then. Sounds like the problem is solved - Dave's going to cover it. See you at grid.

[Knestis]

Random observations (of bees, perhaps)...

** A random drawing, while "equitable" in the sense that everyone has a chance of getting any givens spot, won't be perceived as equitable when random chance leaves someone feeling like they got screwed (see "I kept ending up in the 20s" earlier).

** A process that puts the historically faster cars in front (like I stepped into at a MARRS weekend) is NOT equitable for the new addition to the grid; instead it helps lock in established IN-equities that favor the frontrunners.

** Some folks may not prefer being up front, so ending up there won't be a "win" for them. In a mixed group (a la ITS/ITB ) I've often found advantages by being tail-end Charlie, giving a lot of room in front of me with a slow first lap, then poaching off of the fast guys' air when they catch and pass me on the straights.

K

[Wreckerboy]

Random observations (of bees, perhaps)...

** A process that puts the historically faster cars in front (like I stepped into at a MARRS weekend) is NOT equitable for the new addition to the grid; instead it helps lock in established IN-equities that favor the frontrunners.

K

K, you make some valid points, but I will take exception to this one. Based upon personal experience as a one time "new addition to (a MARRS) grid" I faced this same issue. The solution wasn't simple, but it was workable - I raced my way to the front. When I first started racing in the MARRS series I was gridded in the wayback portion of the field - often starting a qualifying session 30th or worse. For a few seasons the existence of the pace car was only an ugly rumour perpetuated by the 2% up front. Of course the front runners had the advantage of a clear track, and I had to earn my way there. It meant that as a relative newbie that I needed to work on developing enough racecraft to figure out how to get that flier to at least get me within shouting distance of the sharp edge of the pack.

[Greg Amy]

(If someone wants to start from the back instead their "earned" spot up front - either through speed or lottery - they can simply show up at the grid at the "one"...gives you five more minutes of prep time, too...)

[Knestis]

K, you make some valid points, but I will take exception to this one. Based upon personal experience as a one time "new addition to (a MARRS) grid" I faced this same issue. The solution wasn't simple, but it was workable - I raced my way to the front. When I first started racing in the MARRS series I was gridded in the wayback portion of the field - often starting a qualifying session 30th or worse. For a few seasons the existence of the pace car was only an ugly rumour perpetuated by the 2% up front. Of course the front runners had the advantage of a clear track, and I had to earn my way there. It meant that as a relative newbie that I needed to work on developing enough racecraft to figure out how to get that flier to at least get me within shouting distance of the sharp edge of the pack.

So (recognizing that I'm involved in this really as an academic exercise) why shouldn't it be necessary for EVERYONE to "race their way in" afresh each weekend (a la as would be the case with a randomly assigned qualifying session starting spot)? How about rewarding the kind of racecraft you describe over historical success...?

Kirk (who tends to lean away from established power structures on race weekends in addition to in his politics)

[Dano77]

Not for nothing, but, I always go out as far back as possable. This is mostly due to laziness, I just cant get to grid early. The car is hot, the suit is hot, Im hot. Its just an exercise in dehydration.
With NHMS and LRP haveing giant straights, you can pretty much time the go portion of the session with the mirror. Let all the guys go out and mess each other up racing for the win in practice and slowly reel them in. It only takes a few laps to get a good time by yourself. By then Andy, or whomever is by me and I pick up some pointers and line secrets from them. Also known as learning the weak points of the adversary. Art of war. Cause really, thats what this is.

If it aint broke, Why are we trying to fix it.

[Wreckerboy]

Kirk, upon recognizing an academic exercise when I see one, I would suggest that your Darwinian approach has valid points. And when Darwin gets his comp license we'll address them.

[ulfelder]

I'm also one of Those Guys. I blame Bettencourt, he's a bad influence. At Lime Rock in particular, with 30+ R/S/B cars on track, you get an out lap, one flyer, and then miserable traffic.

[jumbojimbo]

This is GLD dirty laundry but at MO a certain pair of hondas would get to grid super early and be 1-2. Then spend the whole first lap "warming tires" at 30mph to gather everyone behind them literally blocking anyone from passing. Then the primary could would take off while the secondary car would ensure no one else got by, essentially setting a max possible lap time. They get traffic free laps, everyone else is in a gaggle of traffic. They are gone now, but I was prepared to protest them the next time it happened if they blocked me from passing on the out lap.

I like to go out early because I use that out lap as practice for lap 1 of the race. Plus, I like getting an extra lap, especially at Nelson where qualifying can be as short as 10 minutes. Nothing worse than having no clean laps and seeing the checker 5 seconds before you get to the line.

Here's a question, if it's not broken, why is it a problem if someone comes up with a lower stress solution?

[Knestis]

So how's that rule going to be worded to assure that a-holes are at the back of the qualifying grid? Or is there a chance the new plan would just reinforce their "right" to be there?

We can't legislated away misbehavior. If someone is going to pull crap like that, it's going to take enforcement - starting with the rules they are already breaking.

Crashing into someone's camera-equipped car on the straight under a green flag is going to be a little hard to explain away, particularly if that same camera captures your crew person letting them know on the grid that you anticipate passing them if they aren't fully up to speed when you're ready to rock...

K

[Ed Funk]

After we get this pressing issue sorted out, I'd really like the group to give some serious thought to the problem of reserved paddock areas. It's so stressful to arrive at the track without knowing in advance where I'm going to be paddocked. Perhaps a system based on years in the sport and/or age of the driver and proximity to the men's room (or latrine in the case of Nelson Ledges).

The method of lining up on the road with trucks and trailers and having an "Oklahoma Land Rush" when the gaits are opened just doesn't seem safe...tho it does provide a way of getting rid of Miatae without damaging my race car.

[Greg Amy]

Sarcasm aside, WDCR does it...and I love it.

But apparently NER's attitude is "if it ain't broke, why fix it?"

Just sayin'. Well, actually, they're sayin'...

[Ed Funk]

How 'bout Time Trial style....cars released individually, 15 sec gaps, 3 laps max? Might take "a bit" longer to run a qualifying session, but everyone gets to have a "flyer" without that pesky traffic.

[Greg Amy]

I don't mind traffic. In fact, I use traffic to my advantage. I don't like the qually "land rush" because:

- I don't want to sit on the grid for 30 minutes, so I'm usually in the back;
- Which usually results in my losing at least one lap of practice/qually (I always use the whole session for add'l butt time and learning, guess I'm not as good as others in that regard); and
- Those that do wait for 30 minutes to be at the front of the grid - and let's be honest, it's almost always Miatas - will intentionally block traffic behind them to bunch up the field, causing significant and unnecessary congestion at the back for everyone else (so they can get in a flyer or two before encountering - and bitching about - the very traffic congestion that they themselves caused).

We can either get these drivers to stop engaging in such selfish behavior, or we can implement a top-down process to diffuse the effects of such behavior, or we can just say there's not actually a problem that needs to be fixed and everyone can deal with that non-problem in their own ways.

Doesn't sound like the first two options are really options.

GA

P.S. and to be honest, pre-arranged parking is not a terrible idea, thanks for bringing it up...