The Current State of Improved Touring

[Jeremy Billiel]

If you will indulge a 47 year SCCA member, and to quote Harry Truman, "The only thing new under the sun is the history you don't know."

The club overall, categories and individual classes have gone through the cheap to costly cycle multiple times. The observation that it's all fun and games until it matters to someone to win is the controlling factor in all of motorsport.

BINGO! Well Said

[Ron Earp]

IT is still cheap racing. I've seen the posts pointing to Jeff's TR8, or the ITS Mustangs, as being what is wrong with the class but I beg to differ. We built those cars because we wanted to race a certain make and model. And sure, they are more expensive builds when compared to other ITS cars but that's because they're the only examples in the class and we wanted 10/10ths builds.

But you can get a competitive and winning ITS car for under $8k. I sold my 260Z for $7XXX, eight wheels, with a spare tranny, spare rear end, and 100% functional spare engine. Set the car up right, drive it, and you could podium in any SE ITS race. As Matt said, I've seen many other ITS, ITA, and ITB cars on this site that are similar for stupid cheap money.

IT is still the same old IT. Cheap, affordable.

I do think the SCCA could increase IT participation if they weren't trying to cannibalize it to save national/majors, and if they reduced barriers licensing to be more inline with what other clubs offer. I understand they've made strides in the latter, but are only getting worse with the former.

[Chip42]

top 3 problems as I hear others say I (those who would be racing or racing IT):
1 - the car I have doesn't fit due to either potential or upgrades not in line with IT, and I want to race THIS car.
2 - too restrictive or "stupid" rules.
3 - prep levels are silly and cost too much, much better to throw the car on a dyno and see what you put down, then review the build and group the cars accordingly (NASA PT).

basically - perception and philosophy issues. all the guys IN IT know there are a bunch of GOOD cars for sale for CHEAP. we ALL advise to buy, not build, but people who want to elevate their current car to race often don't WANT to go that route.

the IT rules really don't fit the paradigm of what many people want to do with a car. the ST rules come a lot closer to that and I fully expected ST to blow up with entries from the TT/TA/Tuner/DriftoMod people. and while a few of them came in (James Innes is a good example, coming from a drag background and selling tuner parts and whatnot through his company IPG Parts) it wasnt' the influx many expected. THAT I think is the fuddy duddy SCCA culture or the reputation of such. oh, and a completely crap job of marketing the club and the category outside of our own membership. this is something we all need to improve upon.

the NASA PT thing is bonkers to me, but I understand the "instant gratification" and "participation awards" mentality of the Dr. Spock generation wants to feel they have a shot even if they didn't do the work. as Jeff said, THIS is a cultural problem, not a rules one. that NASA found a half assed way to accommodate it shows that their desire is to get entries, ours is to hold races.

so people stay away. how do we fix it? I submit that CATEGORY protectionism is the LAST thing we need. if the solution means that IT, LP prod and ST roll into one group while level 1 prod and GT and some other stuff rolls into another, fine. that's something that HAS come up in paddock conversations here and there. yup - it means pains for everyone, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered. it's like tearing the bandage off rather than peeling it slowly - or in this case more like cauterizing a wound rather than letting it get gangrenous and then amputating piece by piece with a bone saw and no anesthetic.

Ron - your car is far from "the problem" in IT, it's an example of the level of prep and quality of racing ITS enjoys in the south east. but it is something that can be placed on a plinth as a prime example of how IT is not what IT was not that very long ago. back in the day it was get good parts, build it right, maintain it, drive it well, and you will do well. in many places IT is still this, though the counts are down. if you show up to an ITS race in the southeast with a car not prepped to roughly your level (and understood that on something like an RX7 that will be a lower cost undertaking as the development work is largely done, you can buy the parts and get a big chuck of the way toward the pointy end of the curve) then you had best be one hell of a shoe, because that's a tough group.

some people are attracted to that level of competition and refinement. I know you are. and a lot of those people realize the learning curve and development curves will be steep AND EMBRACE THAT CHALLENGE. BUT more and more, I think people want to slap together something good enough and go race. people have less time, relatively less money, and often don't want a project, they want a racecar despite the fact that you cannot have one without the other as WE - the people who have been at it a while- already know. SM answers that question on paper a lot better than IT does now. and that sucks for guys who love IT and hate watching it shrink.

guys who want to do basically whatever the hell they want and not spend an arm and a leg doing it or worrying about fiddly legality issues or prep levels outside of the paradigm they prefer gravitate to chump and NASA PT/TT.

so prep levels definitely have changed, but preferences have changed, too. we as a club have to decide if we want to chase those preferences or just wait for the cycle to come back around to our way, and hope that it does. as has also been pointed out - the kids largely just aren't into it. that part is just sad.

[Cluelessmale]

3 - prep levels are silly and cost too much, much better to throw the car on a dyno and see what you put down, then review the build and group the cars accordingly (NASA PT).

The dyno only make these classes worse, everyone knows how to make a switch that tell the ECU to pull timing out of the motor thus making it make a lot less power. Last time we had a car tuned the tuner flat out asked it we needed a tune making XXX less power.

Also false dyno sheet are easy to make

[Alfa Mike]

There's always IT-7

[Chip42]

The dyno only make these classes worse, everyone knows how to make a switch that tell the ECU to pull timing out of the motor thus making it make a lot less power. Last time we had a car tuned the tuner flat out asked it we needed a tune making XXX less power.

Also false dyno sheet are easy to make

Just to be clear, im relaying comments i hear, not endorsing them. I think classificatiin by dyno is dumb, though i see some merit in "points" or "chump bucks" as a bassis of establishing prep level and in turn, class.

[JeffYoung]

Andy and Ron may have said it better, but I still think IT is entry level racing and in many ways no different than Chumpemons.

Two examples:

1. Ron is right (as is Andy). Any one of the drivers at teh front of the field in ITS could go buy a good Z car or RX7 or 325 for $6-8k, do some minimal work to it, and run at the front in SEDiv. It doesn't take a $70k oddball car to do that.

2. I'm quite sure that if you added labor, etc. in, thee are plenty of cars up front at Chump and Lemons that have $50/60/70k in them.

So, Rob Myles remains right: perception is the reality, regardless of what the real reality is.

[adamjabaay]

Andy and Ron may have said it better, but I still think IT is entry level racing and in many ways no different than Chumpemons.

Two examples:

1. Ron is right (as is Andy). Any one of the drivers at teh front of the field in ITS could go buy a good Z car or RX7 or 325 for $6-8k, do some minimal work to it, and run at the front in SEDiv. It doesn't take a $70k oddball car to do that.

2. I'm quite sure that if you added labor, etc. in, thee are plenty of cars up front at Chump and Lemons that have $50/60/70k in them.

So, Rob Myles remains right: perception is the reality, regardless of what the real reality is.

at first I thought "YEAH RIGHT!" , and then started adding up the hours I have in my lemons crx, and the hours my brother has in it, and if you billed us 40-50$ an hour or so, we'd owe ourselves a crapload of money..

same thing with my "cheap" ITA car, which I have a LOT of time into, and am only starting to develop.

but, that's part of the fun!

[lawtonglenn]

...if you billed us 40-50$ an hour or so...

my daughter's volvo just had a little work done at an independent shop (Northern European
Automotive in Concord) at $95/hr

I just had to have a Kubota tech from Townline Equipment come replace a broken hydraulic line
If I could have hauled it there it would have been $98/hr but since it was stranded in the
field, it was $115/hr while he was here plus $115/hr travel time

this is why we do all our own work on the RX7s... we have to!

.

[Knestis]

...and people like me, who simply don't have the time and infrastructure, rent cars. And the people who provide rentals very quickly figure out the "money value of time" (not the same as the time value of money) and their cheap rental - a la LeMons - goes away.

K

[Kahl23]

I would encourage anyone who thinks that "the kids just aren't into cars anymore" to seriously reconsider that position. Obviously I'm biased since I'm one of those kids, but if you think about car culture in the past decade, the tuner scene grew to be a $5 billion industry before the recession thanks to us kids. There are a lot of us who love cars and are more than happy to spend money on them (just go to the drag strip on a open track night or to an HPDE event and see for yourself).

What you should be asking is why is fresh blood not coming to SCCA? Forget that instant gratification bull: some of us might be spoiled brats when we leave high school, but the real world knocks that out of us very quickly. Personally, I'm here in large part thanks to Dave's book. I also agree with those who say the club has done a piss poor job marketing itself.

Something else that I don't think has been mentioned: most people's first experience with a club is when someone says, "I'll be racing at a NASA/SCCA/Chump event this weekend, you should come check it out." If someone's buddies are racing in NASA, that's most likely where they're going to go as well. If the club made a concerted effort to attract young people, I'd argue it would only take a few before it became self-perpetualizing.

[OUBob]

^Thats why Im here. Ruck said "I'm racing at M-O this weekend. Wanna go?" I said "Yea." Then I thought "this is tiddies. I wanna do this." But he SCCA never "reached out" to me. I had to seek it out. Hell, I stopped at Autox events put on by the SCCA and STILL had no idea what the hell they were.

[lateapex911]

Chip. that was a pretty good soap box speech, and hit a few nails on the head.

Kahl, IN GENERAL, (I realize that there are plenty of exceptions) I see non racing "racing" is becoming very popular. Racing , thats another story. I'm talking about competition in a motor vehicle where the car is a tool. I think that more people are gravitating to less real deal competition, and are wanting to 'race', but wink wink, nudge nudge, they prefer a more soft approach.

NASA PT: It SEEMS like its an even up deal, but it's a cheaters paradise if you get serious. Marque clubs are doing big business with 35 classes for 5 models of Porsches or BMWs. 3 cars, 2 trophies....
As pointed out. Dyno racing?? only chumps have one tune.
HPDEs....I instruct for a group, and when I go into town for lunch in my jeans and tshirt I overhear the guys in their drivers suit brag about how they clocked some other dude in a stock Cayman. A $1500 drivers suit, that is. Look sharp, talk big. God only knows what they're telling people that are more gullible! LOL
It's not just 'the youth of today" I'm talking about.

The groups that are doing well are providing people a place to play, but providing a truly level playing field just isn't that important to most. Heck, I bet that to many, a level playing field is something to be avoided!. I've heard many times: "SCCA?? Oh, they're too serious".
That "Stupid rules" comment? 9 times out of 10 it really means: "I'm not reeeeaaaaly interested in level playing field racing to see who's a better driver/builder/racer, I'd rather go someplace looser and not be so 'serious'". That's FINE. but don't cloak it with a criticism about the rules, be honest and say, "It's more about being involved in racing than it is actually racing for the competition"

If people want to REALLY race...to beat other people on a level playing field, they don't whine about some stupid rule about having to have a washer bottle in place. They go find some plastic bottle and strap it in and use it as an overflow, and get on with their program.

I just think that the number of people who really want to compete....and are okay with laying it all out thee...and losing as part of the process of competing, is becoming smaller.

And the pressures of society and disposable income and the changing role of a 'dad' are all part of it as well.

[Wreckerboy]

Jake, that comment about the SCCA being too serious is interesting, because it ain't exactly new. 25 years ago when I got involved with EMRA, the recurring theme was always the same - "the SCCA is too serious, EMRA is more laid back, nicer atmosphere, etc." Thats what we always heard from the SCCA types who came to play with us. And to be frank, the few SCCA events I first attended in the late 80s and early 90s (NER events, by the way), bore this out.

Which mirrors my experience as a car obsessed person back then. I went with the group that was more welcoming and stayed with EMRA for the better part of more than 20 years. I did some SCCA stuff, but always found EMRA more welcoming. Note that I am not even getting into the very vocal anti-EMRA sentiment I came across from various NER folks. Suffice it to say "great salesmanship, guys." There's more than one reason I am a WDCR member even though I live in Joisey.

Now, to be honest, EMRA hasn't exactly flourished in the last few years either, particularly their wheel to wheel program. But, and this is a big but, their Time Trial program is once again growing and bringing in fresh blood. From what I see at a distance, they are getting a fair mix of complete beginners and some HPDE types. The question is if they are retaining them.

So the problem is not JUST getting new people - the success of various HPDE and LeChump groups says that is possible - but of RETAINING them. A mentoring program has been mentioned. How did/does that work? Those of you who came to the SCCA from areas where there are alternatives, why did you continue to race with the SCCA?

[Bill Miller]

Jake, that comment about the SCCA being too serious is interesting, because it ain't exactly new. 25 years ago when I got involved with EMRA, the recurring theme was always the same - "the SCCA is too serious, EMRA is more laid back, nicer atmosphere, etc." Thats what we always heard from the SCCA types who came to play with us. And to be frank, the few SCCA events I first attended in the late 80s and early 90s (NER events, by the way), bore this out.

Which mirrors my experience as a car obsessed person back then. I went with the group that was more welcoming and stayed with EMRA for the better part of more than 20 years. I did some SCCA stuff, but always found EMRA more welcoming. Note that I am not even getting into the very vocal anti-EMRA sentiment I came across from various NER folks. Suffice it to say "great salesmanship, guys." There's more than one reason I am a WDCR member even though I live in Joisey.

Now, to be honest, EMRA hasn't exactly flourished in the last few years either, particularly their wheel to wheel program. But, and this is a big but, their Time Trial program is once again growing and bringing in fresh blood. From what I see at a distance, they are getting a fair mix of complete beginners and some HPDE types. The question is if they are retaining them.

So the problem is not JUST getting new people - the success of various HPDE and LeChump groups says that is possible - but of RETAINING them. A mentoring program has been mentioned. How did/does that work? Those of you who came to the SCCA from areas where there are alternatives, why did you continue to race with the SCCA?

Rob, you and I got into EMRA about the same time (late 80's). And I can confirm what you said. I remember one person saying "I fired the SCCA". And as someone new to the sport, what EMRA had to offer was very appealing. It was friendly, low-cost, racing. As a new racer, I didn't expect to be the fastest guy out there, I was just having a blast being on the track. It was a big change from the Time Trial program to the W2W program, and I was loving it. And they way I found out about EMRA was from reading a small, 3-line classified in the back of AutoWeek that said "Drive your street car on a race track". That event was at Pocono, and I will never forget it. It's what sealed the deal for me. Not to mention that there were some really great people that I met. Cally Kruger was the best!!! I haven't followed them in a few years, so I wasn't sure what they were doing.

[ShelbyRacer]

As a high school teacher, I'd like to add some info on the "kids" conversation.

I see several factors, summed up as actual quotes I've heard, with added commentary-

"Racing games are so realistic and I don't have to spend all that money."
Not sure how to address this one, or if it can even be done. Many kids claim to enjoy the excitement and risk of being on track, but in actuality, they crave safety and the ability to hit the reset button.

"Why should I pay to join a club when I can belong to an online club for free?"
They feel like they are part of a club because of online forums and social network "clubs", and see no benefit to joining ours. When trying to enter an event, either they can't because they aren't a member, or they are told they must become one. In either case, NO ONE tries to give them any value for their money, other than, "If you want to play you have to pay."

"I always find out about the things after they happen."
We do such an awesome job of telling each other when events are, sometimes. If I have to search for info on an event that I heard about, what chance is there for someone who has no idea it's happening to find it, or at least find it in time?

"My friend went to one of those events and hated it. It was so complicated."
Translated, I saw a post on a forum one time, and that has become a very convenient excuse. It boggles my mind sometimes to hear about the "10 different times this happened," when in actuality it was one instance that was reposted and retold by 10 different people. Sure it happened when we were younger, but it didn't happen so fast, AND it didn't show up in a search engine...

Other than the first one, the solution is simple, and it's something that many of us have said before. People come and get involved when someone takes them by the hand and gets them out to an event, and MAKES them have a great time in spite of themselves if necessary. How many of us got involved because someone made it so there wasn't any way NOT to go?

I'm sure many of us have posted event info on our favorite forums, but how many have gone back and looked for those interested and directly messaged them privately? Moreso, gotten a phone number and spoke to them? I know I haven't done it lately...

In the end, people who are brought in by someone tend to join and tend to STAY. Why? Because even when the car stuff sucks, the people (for the most part) are awesome, and they have a connection. I know it's why I'm here, and the majority of our locals will probably say the same. If they weren't brought in by family, they were brought in by friends, or worse, friends that are closer than family.

Discuss.

[Wreckerboy]

Bill, in order to avoid thread drift you have PM.

[gran racing]

Kahl23 - I am REALLY happy the book helped you. Makes me feel great to know that.


I started off in EMRA as well. The biggest part was the cars overall were realistic builds and the paddock was filled with large enclosed trailers and totters. Much less intimidating. I did EMRA because it was fun. But as I developed, I wanted more competition and bigger fields in my class. There were also aspects of EMRA which completely turned me off and I never attended an event since. It was tooooooo casual. Guy smoking on grid / pit out, a nice touch. Or other person who was directly tied to EMRA saying he had to take a piss, turns around then walks a few steps then begins right in the paved paddock. Several other similiar issues. Bring friends and family? Ummm, no.

A mentoring program has been mentioned. How did/does that work?

On my site, I put up a link to a page where there were questionnaires. One for experienced drivers / mentors, and another for students. The information then went into a database where I was able to pull reports into Excel. I manually attempted to match people based on geography, cars types involved, and so forth. It became extremely time consuming! After about a year, I needed to stop doing it.


There’s software out there which acts somewhat similar to dating sites which would automate the process, but that’s too expensive for me to implement (and time consuming to set-up). This would be the way to do it though.

[Wreckerboy]

Dave, my point was not a whole EMRA vs. SCCA thing, but just to point out that at one point one group was more welcoming than another, and that Jake's point about the SCCA being so "serious" isn't exactly a new phenomenon.

To be frank, I haven't spent a lot of time in a NASA paddock (NA or MA). What is the attitude there? They still get/got more people than I see in a SCCA paddock. Are they retaining them? If so, how?

As for the mentoring thing, what, if anything are groups doing locally to help their newest recruits have a good time? Or should that even be their responsibility?

(BTW, I know who was smoking. I just hope to god it wasn't me you saw taking a leak!)

[Kahl23]

Jake, I agree to a point.

Try to put yourself in the mindset of someone who is just starting out. You don't know if you actually will enjoy the experience of racing, you just know that it sounds intriguing. With the SCCA, the only way to "test the waters" is to buy, build or rent a car and go to school. All of those options cost at least four figures, which is a lot of money to spend for something that you might try and hate. Contrast this with NASA, BMWCCA, etc., where you can spend a few hundred bucks and get a day on track with your car with an instructor teaching you. Which option would you choose?

I think that there are certainly people who like the looser rule sets because it allows cheating. However, I think that especially for people who are just starting out, it appeals because it's less intimidating. Again, thinking like someone new to the world, how daunting would it be to be handed the GCR and told "good luck"?

The looser rulesets certainly encourage cheating and I am not advocating a switch to something like that at all. Personally, one of the reasons I chose the SCCA is because I was told it was the most serious club racing out there. What I am saying is that the SCCA needs to find a way to ease people into the world of racing. Run what you've brung is the gateway drug of the racing world and right now the only thing the SCCA is selling is the hardcore stuff.