The Current State of Improved Touring

[Wreckerboy]

Jeff, perhaps you are too close to the situation to realize the inherent contradictions in much of what you are saying. You "think it is the PERCEPTION that you have to go the route (that I and others have gone)." Your caps, not mine. Remember, perception trumps reality. Each. And. Every. Time. See also: Spec Miata as low cost, affordable racing.

You say that you spent "probably in excess of $70k in the car" and that "probably $30-40k of it was "put it in and rip it (out) development shit." I remember how long you suffered to get a brake package that lasted longer than pulling the car off the trailer. That is exactly what scares people off about IT. It is not hard for anybody, not just British ox cart drivers, to spend that kind of money building a competitive jalopy. Just going on what AB has posted in this forum concerning the build of his ITA Miata - the endless dyno sessions for exhaust development, the time spent getting his engine management right, and on and on, he could easily be into it for that much. It's not just the money - look at tJU's Honda. He did some insane amount of that work with his own hands and built a world beater. "His skills," as was said elsewhere, "make the rest of us look like hacks." Or the Earpstangs, which are marvels of development. All that money, and perhaps more importantly, all that time, and what do you have, the most perfectly assembled Hondawagenstang ever assembled? Right, so Joey Flatbrim can spend a lot less, buy some pimpin' brakes and exhaust for his Hondawagenstang (which we all know attracts teh honeyz) and go have fun.

And how about the time? You've been racing the TR-8 for 10 seasons now, and it took five seasons to get to the point where you were "finishing on podiums and occasionally leading races." In today's instant gratification society, five years is an eternity.

You know now, hell we all know, that you buy a built car for $peanuts on the development dollar. But most people new to the sport DON'T know that, and many are attracted to track events because they already have a car that they've tossed a few bits and pieces at and now they want to race it. But wait, there are all these RULES. And in Improved Touring all those rules mean that Joey has got to take off his already purchased go fast bits to make some OE piece of carp work. Gone are those pimpy brakes, the fancy suspension parts, et. al. Add back in the time to make that stuff work. Not everybody is up to, or even wants to take on that challenge. "I just wanna race!"

Please don't get me wrong - I love Improved Touring, I respect the hell out of the effort that is put into some of the top flight builds I've seen. If I ever have the ability to properly develop a car (or if I start running out of Miata fenders), I'd come back to the category quicker than I would go to STL or something like that - it trips my triggers. But that's an anomaly, not the norm. I look around a WDCR paddock and where do I see the youngest drivers? SSM. Why? Ease of access.

Chip makes good points but I still think a lot of that is perception.

I went racing in 2003, right in the middle of the Bimmerworld/Speedsource madness. I was SLOW out of the box, but I did get on track for $7k in prep costs in the car, which were cage, fuel cell, shocks all around, seat, safety stuff, wheels and limited slip (Quaife).

By 2004 without any development other than driver, I was midpack.

By 2007 I had maxed out carb development on the carb motor and was finishing on podiums and occasionally leading races.

I then spent two years developing the FI motor and started to get real competitive in 2010, leading races. 2011, I finally started to win and won a championship.

Point? Yea, I have probably in excess of $70k in the car, BUT it is spread over ten years, and probably $30-40k of it was "put it in and rip it" development shit, and half that was the goddamn motherfucking Haltech. Sorry. Still gives me shivers.

BAck to the point. Even in ITS, you can build or buy a decent car for $6-10k and run mid pack or even close to the front if you buy a good one. Heck, I'd be lucky to get $10k for my car, and I know top flight RX7s that have sold for $8k.

So I don't buy the idea that the development costs on my car or the Earpstangs are the barrier to entry. I think it is the PERCEPTION that you have to go the route I've gone, or Ron and Jeff have gone, or STeve and Chip have gone.

You don't. And you can still run competitively in ITS if you look around and buy wisely.

[Jeremy Billiel]

Racing takes insane amounts of money. We know that...The development requirements to win is HUGE. tGA has also said numbers like $60k in development in his NX2000. Newbies only *think* they want to race. "Just get me out there". Then after they are no longer green, they go Holy shit... Look at Ulfelders S2000, Andy's Miata, Greg's NX2000, Jeff Youngs Triumpth, Anthony Serra's Integra (remember when he sold that car for like 30k and we all gasped?), The bimmerworld/speedsource cars.

I would also point out the pits. When was the last time you saw some minivan pulling a tiny trailer with the race car on it. NOW we have 60-70k in trucks, trailers, etc alone before the car is even purchased.

The runoffs I hear are even worse. Toters only... Very few open trailers, etc

Bottom line is SCCA's attraction is big dollar builds with like minded people who have lots of money who want top of the line safety and organizational rules, etc. SCCA needs to understand that as America has gotten more wealthly everything else moves up with it.

[JeffYoung]

Rob, absolutely perception becomes reality....no question, and it has happened in IT for sure.

But that's exactly what I'm trying to show is wrong in that post. You don't HAVE to do what I did or Ron did or Greg A did or Andy did to get to the front.

Right now, you can buy a top flight ITS car and race at the front in very competitive multi marque racing in the SEDiv. For WAY less than it would take to run up front in an SM in regional SEDiv racing, much less "old" national.

So we agree on all points except one: it's entirely possible to run up front in IT for the same or less money than SM. It's just that a lot of folks -- as you correctly point out - don't see that to be the case or want to spend the time to find out that what I am saying is true.

I will also say with all that time an dmoney spent on the car, the best investment and the biggest leaps in performance came from seat time, and with that SM does have a huge advantage over IT. SMs can double dip, they are reliable and folks get a lot of track time out of them.

[Tom Blaney]

Back in the "good old days" of the 80's to late 90's the hillside at Lime Rock would have quite a few spectators. Both at larger club organized regional, and most nationals. At the Narrc'off's there would be a big crowd.

So there use to be quite a few events where you would get all puffed up after a race because there were spectators. But personally once the club brought in "Spec whatever" the idea of cheering for a particular marque faded and so did the excitement.

Now if you look in the pits, there are not as many wives that even come to the events anymore. I think this is still an issue, both for the track that is hoping for some gate money, and the drivers who want to be acknowledged (first or last) by the crowd for putting out a good effort.

[webhound]

Bottom line is SCCA's attraction is big dollar builds with like minded people who have lots of money who want top of the line safety and organizational rules, etc. SCCA needs to understand that as America has gotten more wealthly everything else moves up with it.

Huh? Is this true? And more importantly, is it good?

When I came out to watch club races as an early teen, I swear there were normal working people there, like the plumbers and painters, with their work vans or family wagons towing open rinky dinks with ITB cars on them. A lot of cars were still being driven to the track. It actually did look accessible.

Now I hear from a certain subset that racing is expensive and that they see no reason whatsoever to cater to a lower demographic. If this is seriously the mindset, you will continue to see diminishing fields. Looking at it any other way is delusional. The really really rich guys will either have their Stradale toted to the challenge races, or will continue to go to the private club tracks. The poorer demo will get priced out of the SCCA model and continue to go elsewhere. The people somewhere in the middle, which is a diminishing demo, will have one-man self congratulatory podium celebrations.

It's a club and there is a lot of validity that it should be what the members want. I'd just hate to see it wither because things aren't being looked at realistically.

Will

[Andy Bettencourt]

Back in the "good old days" of the 80's to late 90's the hillside at Lime Rock would have quite a few spectators. Both at larger club organized regional, and most nationals. At the Narrc'off's there would be a big crowd.

So there use to be quite a few events where you would get all puffed up after a race because there were spectators. But personally once the club brought in "Spec whatever" the idea of cheering for a particular marque faded and so did the excitement.

Now if you look in the pits, there are not as many wives that even come to the events anymore. I think this is still an issue, both for the track that is hoping for some gate money, and the drivers who want to be acknowledged (first or last) by the crowd for putting out a good effort.

Times are-a-changin' Tom. Did you know that the percentage of kids who get their license in the first month they are eligible is down 50% from just 15 years ago? Why? I submit it's because they don't need a car to be 'free' of their parents and 'see' their friends. They text, facetime and they meet up in on-line gaming areas. They don;t need a car to gain that freedom.

My point is that there is way to much going on now that limits the 'track' as a viable entertainment choice. Too much distraction, too much need for instant gratification.

It's not about the cars. It's about the culture.

[JeffYoung]

Andy speaks truth. Ron and I were talking about this a while back. Not many kids work on cars, or are interested in cars any more. Weird. We were obsessed with them back in high school.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Now I hear from a certain subset that racing is expensive and that they see no reason whatsoever to cater to a lower demographic.

Will

Did someone really write that or are you just reading into it? The IT rule-set has, at it's core, been similar to itself for decades. Other than coil-overs and ECU's, it doesn't cost any more to build a 10/10th's car now than it did then. The difference is popularity and desire. When I started on my Miata I saw the Serra Integra and the Amy NX2000 as targets. I poured the blood, sweat and bucks into the goal to be the top dog. Same rules, more commitment (- edit: not than Anthony or Greg, than the 'good ole days)

Nothing against the 'plumber' who loaded his RX-3 onto a home-built wooden trailer in 1983 running on a shoestring. The racing was just as good then as it ever was. But until someone wants to take it to the limit of the rules, it's all an illusion of affordability.

IMHO the only thing you can do is what LeMons does and that is institute a claimer clause (or destruction IIRC).

[Jeremy Billiel]

From first hand experience I can say I *was* the demographic SCCA wanted. I started off with autox, went to HPDE and was racing in my early 20's (in my car that I owned prior). I "raced" for 5 years and struggled to ever even think about getting close to the podium becasue I did not have the funds to test and get the seat time required. Marriage and 2 kids later I am out of racing as the priorities change. I will be back, but as a 40+ year old with MONEY. When I come back I am going to do it right and be 100% in. There is nothing worse than half-assing it.

Now in todays terms, kids don't get there licenses until 20, they aren't interested in cars. They get married, kids, etc and that entire under 30 group is now missing from the club to back fill those who leave.

What is the average SCCA racers age? I bet its north of 40. Why is that? They have MONEY.

RACING IS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY. I am sorry, but "cheap" builds don't exist if you want to win. My personality is not one to just do it "for fun".

IT is feeling these pressures, frankly just as the rest of the club is.

[Andy Bettencourt]

But you can buy a car that can win in very popular classes like ITS, ITA, ITB and ITC for under $10K.

Some of the illusion of the pointy end is that it's 100% car. It's not. It costs money to develop the driver. It costs money to maintain the car so it stays on the track every week without failure. It costs money to have tires with the fastest amount of heat cycles left in them to fight for those last few tenths.

The money isn't always in the car before it gets on track. It's after it gets on track.

[gran racing]

Sorry Jeremy, but you just didn't have the drive and commitment to make it happen. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. People can get really cheap track time by instructing at HPDEs. It doesn't take a ton either; just use the time wisely.

The high end builds get a lot of attention, which is expected.

Just going on what AB has posted in this forum concerning the build of his ITA Miata

But that's far from the norm. Andy and the company he's involved in (FlatOut) did an amazing job. He also drove hit butt off. But how much competition did he really have? Not all that much.

You don't HAVE to do what I did or Ron did or Greg A did or Andy did to get to the front.

Absolutely agree. One of the aspects that I like about IT is the diminishing returns. One could take $15k and do a very good ITB build and run at the front. Yes, they’d need to do some [i]basic items[i] themselves and choose where the money is best spent. I’d say about the same for ITA.
There sure are a lot of enclosed trailers out there in paddocks. Keep in mind other factors though. Many families now have SUVs beyond just for racing needs, which are capable of towing an enclosed. Then the trailers just aren’t that crazy expensive - $3k - $4k used. Seeing all of them does change outsiders perspectives though.

[gran racing]

and that they see no reason whatsoever to cater to a lower demographic

Fortunately that's not the case. As some know, I've spent a lot of time (and money) trying to make information available on how to get into the sport on a modest budget. SCCA has been very supportive of this, which shows they feel it's important.

[Tom Blaney]

I understand and (being in the computer industry) are well aware that the kids can program a cell phone quickly and are not signing up for "shop class"
However watching the tube, we see quite a few kids will attend a "drifting" event (with their girlfriends and buddies) or will modify their cars to look or act like one.

Why, because "drifting" is more exciting than going to Lime Rock, and watching 7 ITA cars fight for a NARRC title.

[Jeremy Billiel]

Sorry Jeremy, but you just didn't have the drive and commitment to make it happen. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. People can get really cheap track time by instructing at HPDEs. It doesn't take a ton either; just use the time wisely.

Agreed - 1000%. No insult taken. But why? It's all about the coin. I didn't have it and refused to spend money I did not have. As Andy said, its not just the car. More than anything its the seat time, the test days, new tires, etc... The car is the cheap part!

[Jeremy Billiel]

Fortunately that's not the case. As some know, I've spent a lot of time (and money) trying to make information available on how to get into the sport on a modest budget. SCCA has been very supportive of this, which shows they feel it's important.

Dave in your honest assessment how successful has that been?

[webhound]

Fortunately that's not the case. As some know, I've spent a lot of time (and money) trying to make information available on how to get into the sport on a modest budget. SCCA has been very supportive of this, which shows they feel it's important.

I know the SCCA as an org supports this, seeing the drive toward ITEZ. Some members don't like it though.

Did someone really write that or are you just reading into it? The IT rule-set has, at it's core, been similar to itself for decades. Other than coil-overs and ECU's, it doesn't cost any more to build a 10/10th's car now than it did then. The difference is popularity and desire. When I started on my Miata I saw the Serra Integra and the Amy NX2000 as targets. I poured the blood, sweat and bucks into the goal to be the top dog. Same rules, more commitment (- edit: not than Anthony or Greg, than the 'good ole days)

Nothing against the 'plumber' who loaded his RX-3 onto a home-built wooden trailer in 1983 running on a shoestring. The racing was just as good then as it ever was. But until someone wants to take it to the limit of the rules, it's all an illusion of affordability.

IMHO the only thing you can do is what LeMons does and that is institute a claimer clause (or destruction IIRC).

I read into Jeremy's statement that I quoted above as saying that SCCA should cater to the higher $ demo. AND, I had a friend say this specific thing in reference to some posts I made that were supportive of ITEZ, it was along the lines of being indicative of a dumbing down of the class or club or something. He's on here at times, still a friend, I respect his viewpoint. I also like that he'd come out and express his viewpoints, as do I. I don't have to agree with a friend.

I also respect what you guys have done with the top prep cars, and don't mean to diminish that in any way. Put very very simply, I feel that the time is ripe to have a lower prep class to cater to a demographic that has shown it will come out. Props for Dick and NER, and Terry with the JRB for doing it. I hope it works out.

One more thing, quickly. I believe the connection is being made between SM not being cheap even though it's low prep/spec, and that not working out for IT. I would beg to differ on this, as it's tantamount to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Being spec, the smallest gains in HP, grip and weight dist will help differentiate a tight SM field. In a multi marque environment like IT, IMO the gains will be more incremental on track vis tiny fractional gains in prep. So again, IMO, if you cap things like stock r&p and diff, no adj and/or claimer shocks, no ecu work, and gasp street tires, and whatever else, I think the field will necessarily tighten up. Yes, the guy with the KY treated cryo gears, binned balance, shaved and goat peed tires, and blueprinted Monros will still differentiate, he will be within a much smaller delta than what we have now. Further, just because that stuff can still be done, doesn't obviate the good of tightening the prep level a little.

PS, not trying to advocate changing you guys' IT. Something within the ITEZ framework is more my idea.

[Xian]

Did someone really write that or are you just reading into it? The IT rule-set has, at it's core, been similar to itself for decades. Other than coil-overs and ECU's, it doesn't cost any more to build a 10/10th's car now than it did then. The difference is popularity and desire. When I started on my Miata I saw the Serra Integra and the Amy NX2000 as targets. I poured the blood, sweat and bucks into the goal to be the top dog. Same rules, more commitment (- edit: not than Anthony or Greg, than the 'good ole days)

Similar rules but there's more cost that goes into the development than there used to be. The majority of that is trickle-down technology from pro level racing. Pipemax & Burns + a ton of dyno time for your header/exhaust, more dyno time for the intake design, more dyno time for the ECU, etc. Add onto that the additional safety requirements (H&N, belts aging out, halo race seat, right side net). Add on additional budget for modern short lifecycle tires. Toss in an extra dose of shock valving development then put it all together and it seems to me that there's way more cost/complexity that goes into a current build than would have been seen 25 years ago.

Nothing against the 'plumber' who loaded his RX-3 onto a home-built wooden trailer in 1983 running on a shoestring. The racing was just as good then as it ever was. But until someone wants to take it to the limit of the rules, it's all an illusion of affordability.

IMHO the only thing you can do is what LeMons does and that is institute a claimer clause (or destruction IIRC).

Having been to a couple LeMons races, they don't have a claimer clause or destruction clause. When LeMons first started they destroyed some cars (people's curse) but that went away ages ago as they morphed from a slow carnival/parade style event to legit amateur endure racing.

PS
I've wondered whether IT has also been hurt by the SCCA's efforts not to let cars age out of SS/Touring as quickly as they used to. By allowing these cars to continue running their existing, national class it's dried up some of the "cheap, used racecar" population that would have otherwise been picked up for pennies on the dollar and converted into an IT entry.

[gran racing]

But why? It's all about the coin.

No doubt money make the process much, MUCH easier. Yet getting out there and doing pretty darn well is quite possible on a modest budget. I also recognize there's a difference between that and winning.

Dave in your honest assessment how successful has that been?

It’s been very interesting and eye opening. Regardless of what I or SCCA national does, most regions still have no clue it exists. When approached, it’s a major process for them to consider embracing it, then even more so to have added to a regions website as a resource for people. I couldn’t even get my own region (NER) to do anything with it. I learned that time and energy spent with the regions could be used in much better ways. In that sense it’s been disappointing; certainly wasn’t expected by myself or SCCA National.

On the flip side though, it’s far exceeded what I initially hoped for in terms of visitors and success stories from people. That mentor program I started and ran for about a year? I had to stop it because it was too popular for me to manage without an automated system. Had a few hundred people register for it.

Of course I’ll never be satisfied and wish I had more money to invest into the site, marketing, and so forth. Haven’t figured out how to make it happen, but there’s a lot of potential for it to be much more effective and valuable with added cash.

[matt batson]

Agreed - 1000%. No insult taken. But why? It's all about the coin. I didn't have it and refused to spend money I did not have. As Andy said, its not just the car. More than anything its the seat time, the test days, new tires, etc... The car is the cheap part!

I raced ITB from 04 to 08 until our boy came along and the disposable income went into diapers and stuff.
I did it half assed.
I had a basic car with koni yellows, junkyard engine, welded diff because LSD's were expensive, and ran one set of toyo RA-1's per season (and those shaved toyo's were my rain tire too). I might have had 5K in the build, and then maybe another couple grand in development...maybe...after 4 yrs.

But, the car still ran at the pointy end of the field, and even won (and not only when there were two cars in class )

I sold the car in 08 for 3k dollars.

Sure deuce keanes accord was not in my sights, but 90% of the cars out there in ITB...I could run with.

Unless something has changed drastically since 08, it can be done cheaply while still running up front in ITB.

And anyone can go out and buy a 8K dollar IT car and run midpack or better if they bring the driving skill along with it.

downingracing right now has a ITA civic that you can run up front in for under 8K....just as an example

[Peter Olivola]

If you will indulge a 47 year SCCA member, and to quote Harry Truman, "The only thing new under the sun is the history you don't know."

The club overall, categories and individual classes have gone through the cheap to costly cycle multiple times. The observation that it's all fun and games until it matters to someone to win is the controlling factor in all of motorsport.