Street tires in IT? My Review

[lateapex911]

No Dan... A LOt of people have seen what you guys have done and wish they had that in their region or their class... I see you as the problem!!! Oh PS: you guys shoul be running on Dunlops

Again- as someone mentioned another class is not always the answer, we have to many classes already in scca sprint racing. People that can still develop themselves and there car but don't have the cash to do it should run on street tires, you can easily run mid pack on them and save a ton of money doing it.

Raymond "If you can get a group of guys/girls (as the NE IT7 guys have done) great... You are lucky as you are all saving money without influencing the market enough to change the price or development of the tire." Blethen

You'll have to ask the guys but I THINK they have agreed to (mostly) adhere to a certain level of build. THATS where the savings comes from.

Years ago, Hankook had a program where you won tires. I started off that season with a couple wins and reaped free tires. Having fresh tires allowed me to win again, and again. It allowed me to test more, and I was able to get serious about other aspects of the prep, which upped my game and helped me win more, and get more tires.

While I was "saving" money, I was actually diverting the savings into test fees, dyno time, custom designed and scratch build headers, suspension experiments, and more traveling to more events.

So, IF the local guys respect a prep line in the sand, THEN there are savings. If not, well, the game gets raised, within the bigger game.

Of course, IF the prep line stays the same, then the entrants enter more often, and it's the driver who ups his game. Thats the ideal result, I'd think.

[gran racing]

Ding, ding, ding!!! Yes, exactly!

I have some tires that I wasn't able to put to use, so don't need to divert the initial season's budget towards that. My engine is pinging and was down on hp. Now that I don't have to worry about tires, the engine will be better prepped (not just fixed) and looking to fix the blueprinted tranny that I have (has a bad 5th gear fork). I know that in order to keep up with other cars, the exhaust needs to be addressed. And other stuff.

I look at Andy B.'s Miata. It's still being improved and was arguably one of the best built ITA cars around. There are other extremely well-built cars out there to which keep improving.

These are the areas that I and many others contually struggle to keep up with if we want a shot of running up front with our current talent levels.

[Flyinglizard]

Sorry Dick, I was not arguing anything ,just address this;
"
The fact of the matter is we are not ready for any kind of rule change. There is not enough knowledge about running streets to make any kind of a decision. If more racers are willing to show us all that racing on streets is fun and gives savings that may change. How do you do that, you get a sub set of people running get together and agree to do it showing the rest of us how good it is. Before IT7 was a real class up here we had a race within a race and bought our own gaudy recycled bowling trophy that we awarded back in the paddock to the winning IT7 in ITA. I fought hard for that $2 trophy. Out trophy presentation had more hoopla than the region’s for ITA.


I think streets could be a good thing. I am struck by the fact that 50% of SCCA licensed drivers compete in two weekends a year or less. I would love it if it was easier for those guys to come out more often. Maybe if they thought it was not a waste to drag the car out without a new set or Ho Hos we would see them more often."
The point is that there is plenty of data. not much bad has happened on 180 tires. . That is all.

I would venture that of the 10 guys posting here. half get free tires??
The "Seldom racers" dont bother posting, as they think that their views dont count. When in fact their input should be considered as or more valuable as the 6X race guys. We need these guys on track more often.
Anytime that it cost more to participate, the entries go down. Cheaper tires that will work the second time out seem to be a no brainer.
Many of us race for 400$ per or less. We do.

It might be a great time for a weak region to step up and make a test rule for ITB.

The ITC cars have too few 180 tires and would need to fit 15in wheels and all of the engineering/rules dominoes.

[Chip42]

the economic situation is even more different in the CFR than a lot of the more northern racers see, to wit:

low entry fee. CFR weekends run <$300 regularly. the Turkey Trots were $220 for a single entrant / race group and half that add'l to double dip ($330 total). thus even double dipping was cheaper than a double sarrc weekend.

localized region means many races are closer to the track than is often the case. lower tow costs. doesn't hurt that it's pretty flat here, too.

lots of open trailers and simple rigs scattered in the with 18 wheelers, toters, etc... many of us sleep in our trailers, vans, and tents.

a large population of cars (~60 B/A/S/R cars registered for the weekend) so there's a good sized mid pack, many of whom are actual budget racers and there appears to be much interest among them in trying the STC.

somewhat contained group means the culture is easier to read and understand and everyone can get on the same page rather quickly.

I honestly don't know how well the idea might translate to other regions but I think the CFR is as close to the perfect match for it as possible... I guess that's why the idea I have came from here.

[dickita15]

Understood Mike,
I think this can be done, I think it would be good, it is just from my political perspective we have not reached the tipping point in most places. Not a big deal it will just take some people to demonstrate to the status quo people this is not a threat. Once they have seen the cars on track and reach a comfort level it will be much more doable.
It is like the Club Racing Experience project. We allowed a pilot program in 2013 and some said OMG you are going to let unlicensed drivers run wheel to wheel without a doctor’s note, the world will end. We convinced 4 or 5 regions to try one. The events ran, we learned stuff, the world did not end. The Pilot program will continue in 2014. Do I wish this stuff happened faster, of course, but it kind of like pushing a rope.
One of the biggest problems with change and new programs is at the region level the hard working volunteers who run the programs, and this is true in club racing and solo, like what they are doing. If you are a club racing director for a region it is likely because you like club racing not because you want to, say start a PDX program. It is hard to find the people to champion new programs because we do not currently attract the people who like to do that new program.

[jjjanos]

You'll have to ask the guys but I THINK they have agreed to (mostly) adhere to a certain level of build. THATS where the savings comes from.

Hope in one hand and crap in the other. I know which one will fill first.

[pfcs]

that maybe enough "crazies" would go along with their dream: to retreat from the insane prep levels production car had reached.
They put out the idea of reverting to 1963 production car rules.
They called their dream Improved Touring.

Improved touring is now the victim of it's success:
It was so SENSIBLE, so CHEAP, and so much FUN, that it rapidly snowballed into the most popular type of SCCA racing.
In a very few years, it had attracted all types of members-including some engineering, fabrication types (the rules stated it was a beginning class where members could race cheaply prepared cars that were capable of street use-"dual use" the rules said) that were expected to move to production and sedan (GT), which had been a hugely subscribed and venerated.
The National show was what most SCCA types aspired to and prod and GT WERE where the heroes of club racing hammered out their reputations. We all used to look forward to reading the post-Runoffs Sportscar stories for each National class race.
Then National racing died. And IT became a place that car developing, uber serious types started taking VERY seriously.
They have been eating the menu, and not the meal!
If the "soul" of this class is to survive, some people better start hoping and dreaming.
NO SHIT!

[Ron Earp]

In a very few years, it had attracted all types of members-including some engineering, fabrication types (the rules stated it was a beginning class where members could race cheaply prepared cars that were capable of street use-"dual use" the rules said) that were expected to move to production and sedan (GT), which had been a hugely subscribed and venerated.
The National show was what most SCCA types aspired to and prod and GT !

There's truth in your post. But some of it ignores the reality of IT for the last fifteen years, half the time the class has been in existence. IT is the destination for many of us.

I'd go race Prod or GT. Except for I don't see any cars in Prod that I'm interested in racing. The displacement limit in Prod, I think 3L, ensures I'll be racing imports and very old cars. I don't want to race a hand grenade engine, and while my car, a 1994-2004 chassis is old, it ain't British spridget old.

And beyond that, I'm not at all interested in the National/Majors scene as I'm not going to tow to the middle of the country for a championship race (fixed now), and I'm far more interested in what regional races have to offer such as the SARRC, Cup races, and ECRs (not fixed).

So, I, and many others like me, stay in IT where the racing groups are large, the competitive fields are deep, and most importantly it is where our friends race.

[Flyinglizard]

Phil,
Most of us respect your wisdom,
What would you advise to best guide the future of IT?

Ron. What would change, if you changed tires? Your friends will still race on slower tires..


I think that any cost containment point is always good.

[Ron Earp]

Ron. What would change, if you changed tires? Your friends will still race on slower tires..

There is no argument from me with respect to changing IT to street tires, of course provided we make some provisions for wheel sizes in IT. I'd be happy racing on street tires, on properly sized wheels, if we're all doing it. All good here from my side.

My opposition, if you can even call it that, is to a small subset has a goal of essentially wanted to attract enough attention to get a bunch of racers to race in a "class within a class", but not enough attention to involve official SCCA channels to make an IT rule change. They want to race within an ad hoc race group in a rather futile attempt to reign in racing costs.

Why not work instead toward changing the rules and putting IT on a street tire?

*Is it because they know IT can't be changed due to the SCCA's hierarchy and "change is bad" atmosphere?

*Is it because they don't don't want to be on equal footing with the rest of the IT racers? That is to say, they don't want to run a 10/10th program so they wish to create, even if short lived, a subclass to avoid the "serious" IT guys?

*Not sure street tires are good for racing? Clearly they are, works in other classes and other parts of the world. It can work here.

I feel there are other places to race if you feel like street tires are what you want to use. But, I have no problem racing on street tires in IT, especially if it would be for the greater good of IT. Hell, I'd even be happy to help with the initiative.

IT faces many challenges - LeChump, NASA, and now itself with the advent of ST and allowances for IT cars to run in Majors/Prod classes. If we want IT to survive maybe we need to make some changes.

[Chip42]

it's not really cost containment if the whole class shifts over. short term there's R&D, trying different sizes and brands and setups, shaving, all the stuff that has been said, and then longer term you have potential "fast" life, rate of development leading us BACK down the rabbit hole, etc...

yeah for those who don't want to optimize it's still a pretty big win, but we can just leave it as is and let that group run the 180s (STC!!!) and let the guys who will do the hard work of top level development stick with what they know.

a few years down the line, if one idea looks better than the other, and the data is in and the new economy has had a chance to stabilize, then we might find need to reconsider, but I think MANDATING any change at this point, category wide, is a bad idea as any reward from doing so risks being perceived as unequal to the risk/penalty (perception dependent) - or could actually upset the balance where that is well established.

I'm not interested in upsetting membership, I'm interested in finding way to entice new/inactive racers, help current low-budget guys to come out more, and keep the front of the pack happy, too. lets drop the talk of doing a rule change for now, and consider suggesting that those who cannot afford or complain about the cost of R comps (or those who are just curious) give 180TWs a shot.

[Ron Earp]

it's not really cost containment if the whole class shifts over. short term there's R&D, trying different sizes and brands and setups, shaving, all the stuff that has been said, and then longer term you have potential "fast" life, rate of development leading us BACK down the rabbit hole, etc...

yeah for those who don't want to optimize it's still a pretty big win, but we can just leave it as is and let that group run the 180s (STC!!!) and let the guys who will do the hard work of top level development stick with what they know.

....and everybody is a winner. I still can't help but looking at this is some sort of millennial generation initiative where we have a class for everyone and we all win.

You said it yourself and you know this to be true:

"it's not really cost containment if the whole class shifts over."

So, your goal is to not have the STC recognized by the sanctioning body because you know racers will be racers and will develop to the extent of the rules, and, you're back to where you are now except on street tires.

Sorry, I can't get behind that. I think it is a selfish longview and further dilutes IT, a class that is already seeing attrition.

If the class needs some changes to attract new racers, and keep old ones, then let's make some changes and make IT the place to be racing for the future.

[gran racing]

I fully recognize that street tires have come a long way, but there’s some irony here…


"It all began back in the early 50′s when Robert “Bob” Newton, along with his supportive wife Joyce, began a successful racing career on the small asphalt tracks of northern Indiana. Bob, like many of his fellow drivers, was not satisfied with driving on street tires with their limited sizing options and uniformly hard tread compounds. It was during these early days of “eating bologna sandwiches and sleeping on a creeper under his racer” that Bob had a vision to produce his own tires specifically designed for racing." Bob is the creator of Hoosier Race Tires.


Not too familiar with these tires but would the fit into the street category theme?


You’ve heard about them. You may have even seen them. Now experience them for yourself. Hoosier Racing Tire proudly presents the only true steel-belted radial tire for the Pro-Street and Hot Rod enthusiast, the Hoosier Pro-Street Radial. The Hoosier Pro-Street Radial has been refined to maintain cleaner looks without sacrificing ride comfort or drivability. The Hoosier Pro-Street’s steel-belted radial construction continues to deliver the comfort and highway stability not found in traditional bias-ply tires. Black sidewall markings guarantee the tires blend in with the other custom additions to your car.

[Xian]

Does this:


Look more like this:


Or this:

[Chip42]

Sorry, I can't get behind that. I think it is a selfish longview and further dilutes IT, a class that is already seeing attrition.

If the class needs some changes to attract new racers, and keep old ones, then let's make some changes and make IT the place to be racing for the future.

it's really not targeted at you. it's targeted at those who can't keep up with the likes of you. And I mean no disrespect, your efforts are mind blowing and I think you know how truly impressed and inspired I am by them, but there are people out there who still view IT as entry level. all I'm trying to do is give that crowd a bit of a carrot to stick with it and to help them feel that they don't HAVE to run the best rubber to race in IT. for newbs, once the bug catches then racers will be racers and the lure of the R comps will take hold.

I am NOT trying to make everyone a winner. F that noise.

[georgethefierce]

it's really not targeted at you. it's targeted at those who can't keep up with the likes of you. And I mean no disrespect, your efforts are mind blowing and I think you know how truly impressed and inspired I am by them, but there are people out there who still view IT as entry level. all I'm trying to do is give that crowd a bit of a carrot to stick with it and to help them feel that they don't HAVE to run the best rubber to race in IT. for newbs, once the bug catches then racers will be racers and the lure of the R comps will take hold.

I think this is the key...for me at least the tire/limited prep portion that is drawing me from roundy round to the world of club racing is a short term thing, I am using it to see if I have any aptitude and to see if the juice is worth the squeeze in seat time to dollars...to me there is no other true "entry level" to club racing right now despite the intent of IT.

[TomL]

I've been staying out of this discussion, but after that last assertion that "it's not really cost containment if the whole class shifts over", I've got to say my piece. If you require street tires and, if as purported, they last a long time with minimal fall-off in performance, you will absolutely reduce the cost of competing.

I can give you the closest thing we have to a real world trial, with SEDiv IT7. We have a spec tire, Toyo RA1 or 888. The Toyos are pretty close to a "street tire". They don't have the 180 TW rating, but they are similar in that they definitely have less grip than a Hoosier or similar tire, but they last forever with essentially no fall-off. I always get 20+ sessions on each Toyo and sometimes over 30 before they either hit the cords or fall off appreciably (usually the former). I can run a busy season of 10+ races on one $700 set of Toyos and give up nothing on performance. To maintain the same relative competitive position if we were all running Hoosiers, I'd need to buy two or three sets at $1000+. To give an extreme example, I ran my Mazda in 26 races this year between IT7 and double dipping as an STU. I spent exactly $0 on tires this year. I bought one set in late 2012 and between that and three already well-used sets I had, I didn't need to buy a single tire this year. Yes, I'm about ready for a new set, but don't tell me that you can't save money by not allowing expensive, short-lived tires.

I realize if you save $2-3000 a year on tires you could then spend that money on improved shocks, engine tweaks or testing. If you have a budget of X thousand dollars and you absolutely plan to spend it all, you will, whether on tires or something else. But I'm not sure that you would have to. Once you have a car that is reasonably close to optimized, nothing you do is going to give you a big improvement in speed, EXCEPT for buying new tires every weekend or two. If you weren't essentially required to buy expensive tires regularly just to maintain your position relative to those who do, you would have the option of either: a) spend the money you saved on additional tweaks that might gain you few tenths a lap, or b) just save the money and be no worse off than you were. With the current rules, you have no choice - you either regularly spend the money on tires or go significantly slower.

With a street tire rule, in most classes if you have a good car and can drive it well, you would have a decent shot at winning without spending a lot of money on tires (or possibly anything else). In a really competitive class like SEDiv ITS, where people are spending significant sums on optimizing their cars to the 99th percentile, you will need a lot of that "anything else" to be up front. But even there, you could save a lot of money on tires.

But for all this to occur, it has to be class-wide. As noted earlier, if you just want to save money on tires and don't care much about winning, there's nothing stopping you now. But if you want the cost-saving benefit of street tires and do want to have a shot at a win, it has to be mandatory. And that will be a really major hurdle. I don't know if many of you are familiar with the war that went on when the Toyo rule for IT7 was implemented, but suffice to say that it caused a lot of turmoil for a couple years. Part of that was driven by the people who were winning regularly and getting free Hoosiers. With a primary source of contingency money for SCCA racing being tire manufacturers, I'm not sure if there would be a willingness to implement a street tire rule. But maybe it would allow other manufacturers to play without having to produce a Hoosier-equivalent, so who knows.

[dickita15]

I think this is the key...for me at least the tire/limited prep portion that is drawing me from roundy round to the world of club racing is a short term thing, I am using it to see if I have any aptitude and to see if the juice is worth the squeeze in seat time to dollars...to me there is no other true "entry level" to club racing right now despite the intent of IT.

for god's sake Jason, just go down to Raymond NH and grab a RX7.

[Greg Amy]

for god's sake Jason, just go down to Raymond NH and grab a RX7.

Already done. He bought 07.

[georgethefierce]

for god's sake Jason, just go down to Raymond NH and grab a RX7.

Soon! and if I bother you already just wait 'til you have to run with me!!!