Street tires in IT? My Review

[gran racing]

I absolutely understand your perception. Totally. Many of us have been there, so you're certainly not alone.

[Greg Amy]

And if someone wants to buy wins by prying their wallet open for the purple crack, let them. Let them have that satisfaction, that with their R-comps they beat someone on street tires.

EXACTLY the attitude I'm railing against, on my apparent "mountain from an ant hill". It's attitudes like this that will create the exact opposite intended reaction from your target audience (how far away are we now from comparisons of desire for faster tires to penis size...?)

You sir, are an organic food proponent.

Just pointing out.

- GA

[Chip42]

and again - you keep the rules the same, and encourage the guys who like the idea of running cheaper tires to run in some sort of cohesive "group" to help push them over the edge to doing so. no one wants to show up on lesser equipment, even if they know they are slower they can close the gap somewhat by being on the same tires as the front runners. BUT, if you arrange for a group to opt for street tires, suddenly it's fun. but the caveats have to be clear - this is just a group that identifies themselves as the ones who AREN'T trying to win a title - you knew us as mid pack, now you will know us as ... well mid pack with some new stickers. we agree to be slower for less money in a group of like minded racers and to not get butt hurt when someone beats us. we promise, we're used to it. Everything runs in the same class. same rules, just including a minimum TW in the OPTIONAL sub group.

If a guy on streets wins points toward the regional title, great. wins the title, even better. odds are he's running in a poorly subscribed group, though, and this effort doesn't really pertain to him. One upside could be that his winning on streets pulls existing cars out of garages to run in the class's STC. more cars = win for all.

If a guy on streets takes it super seriously, all he can accomplish is beating a bunch of guys who take the joy of racing more seriously than the joy of winning while simultaneously hampering his own efforts toward a recognized title as the rest of the fast cars are on R-Comps. and the "points race" in the street tires group gets out of sorts. oh darn, a meaningless title gets "stolen". meh.

guy shows up in an area dominated by streets on R Comps and upsets the championship. no one gets butt-hurt, they voluntarily signed up to run in a group that purposely ISN'T competitive against full prep cars.

If you make the rule to run streets locally, you'd better get it in the sups AND know that this is not the same effort the STC is pursuing. run the logo, I don't care, but you are doing it wrong.

If you make this the national rule then BFG and Dunlop will thank you, Hoosier will make a purple crack 180TW, and life will return to normal. whatever. not my intention.

no one is shunned, some might be asked to consider using their considerably higher talents and resources to pursue a meaningful reward, but if they want to continue beating the guys who run for best of the rest, that's fine.

Either way, IT marches on, one big happy family with a stable rule set.

[Dano77]

WOW I go to the ski shop and look what happens.

Im out, not throwing gas on this one.

[matt batson]

When I get back on track, I will run street tires.
Once I get to the point where I am within a couple of seconds or so of the leaders I can then decide if winning a race or winning the arcc or run offs is important enough for me to pony up for Hoosiers

If it isn't that important to me, then I will just continue racing on cheaper street tires

I think that the system as is works just fine

This is all for fun.....right?

[tim240z]

When I get back on track, I will run street tires.
Once I get to the point where I am within a couple of seconds or so of the leaders I can then decide if winning a race or winning the arcc or run offs is important enough for me to pony up for Hoosiers

If it isn't that important to me, then I will just continue racing on cheaper street tires

I think that the system as is works just fine

This is all for fun.....right?

+1

[gran racing]

Chip, maybe you should use something like what you wrote as the general series summary? I think you have the right attitude about it and sharing this with others will at least lead them in the right direction and set expectations.

[Chip42]

Chip, maybe you should use something like what you wrote as the general series summary? I think you have the right attitude about it and sharing this with others will at least lead them in the right direction and set expectations.

I had the same thought while typing that. consider that the STC mission statement, rev 1.

dave, you're a journalist - care to offer some edits? I'm an engineer and tend to get way too long winded explaining simple things. i know I do this, but I cannot seem to stop it.

[gran racing]

More like a guy who loves racing and cars then happens to write about it in my off time. But sure, I'd be happy to put a draft together. Then you and others can further edit it.

[gran racing]

Not pefect but a start. Additional suggestions without making it too much longer?


The purpose of the Street Tire Challenge is to run less expensive tires with a cohesive group of like minded racers. We recognize that these tires are slower than other options, but our racing objectives are to have fun and try to make this hobby less expensive.

Participants of the Street Tire Challenge (STC) agree to be slower for less money not be upset when someone beats us whether it be an R compound race tire or modified (typically shaved) street tire. If you win a race or a series title, great! Yet the odds are participants of the STC will be beat by drivers using race tires. If you take winning seriously, maybe this is not for you.

The Street Tire Challenge is not attempting to become a new class nor are we trying to change the rule-set of the class we race in. Cars will still be subject to the same rules. The STC simply adds a minimum tire wear (TW) in an optional sub-group. We also recognize that other drivers not using street tires will have an impact on the STC “championship”. We purposely have decided to run in this group which is not competitive against fully prepared cars.

The primary reason we are not seeking this to be recognized as the national rule is of our concern if that happened, manufacturers might make a race tire which is still expensive, yet complies with the TW rating.

If you decide make the rule to run street tires in your region, it should be in the supplemental regulations and know that this is not the same effort a part of the STC nor is it the same effort that the STC is pursuing.

Fun and more affordable racing – this is what defines the Street Tire Challenge.

[forestdweller37]

This thread reminds me a lot of the long and at times painful transition from R-comps to street tires in Solo. It was a colorful story if anyone wants to review it.

SCCA really needs some centrally administered street tire road racing opportunity. Preferably without further diluting the talent pool. The word is out as to how well the new breed of street tires handles road racing conditions (just fine, thank you). It would be better for SCCA to get there sooner rather than later.

I think I'll write a letter.

[Chip42]

I personally DON'T want IT to be the "official" place to run street tires, and I don't want to dilute the club with any more classes.

that's why I opted to try this route to encourage people to run together, have some sort of points system and "winners" but with the emphasis on fun, not being a red-coated champion whatever. as long as a slower, cheaper option is legal AND OPTIONAL in IT, this works. once it's 180TW for all, the execution of the idea dies off somewhat/completely.

Dave - nice work, thanks. I'll tweak here and there and make it a little bit more irreverent and call it a day.

BTW - still looking for clever suggestions for that tag line, sticker order goes in next week so hurry!

[StephenB]

I like Greg's name...

"Street Tire Revolution"


Stephen

[StephenB]

As someone that DID and HAS raced on street tires with other people on Rcomps it is really hard not to get the "what if" attitude. Endurance racing is one thing but unless you get a large enough group of street tire people to run with its tough in a Sprint Race when you know you could be so much faster.

I like to race but I think I like to win just as much, not just race with the person next to me, that may be the reason I have a hard time not thinking "what if". I love the cost savings but when the weekend cost is so much to begin with it makes it even harder not to spend the extra amount to stay up.

Stephen

[RSTPerformance]

As many of you know Dunlop has supported my efforts this year, I am proud to have worked with the company to prove street tires are a great option to affordably get you on track having fun! I am looking forward to some more events next year... With that disclosure out of the way it is hard to be unbiased but I truly think that SCCA racing needs to make it easier (cheaper) for a new racer looking to race at an amateur level, even in sprint racing. Having incentives for people to race and potentially win on a more affordable tire should be a priority IMO as it is the single most expensive part of most people's race weekend/budget. NASA and other organizations encourage this with rules that allow people running streat tires to get a weight break (or "r" tires give you a penalty depending if you are a half full/half empty person)... I think it is a long way off before SCCA could ever be open to something like this but I wish it wasn't. Hopefully in endurance racing (Devil In the Dark?) we may see some effort to help encourage new teams with smaller budgets to compete.

Raymond "Plug: Dunlop Direzza ZII, best track day tire ever!" Blethen

PS: YES I do recognize that some cars already can't or have a hard time meeting min weight... Thats another issue on its it's own.

[downingracing]

As a 15+ year racer/IT driver, this is my .02¢:

I started racing with an older Showroom Stock car. Lucky to be at the back of mid pack on a great weekend (for me) with used tires. Once I was driving the car close to limits, I started the upgrades. Over the years I built the car, added new tires to the mix and became a better racer. I built it to the level I wanted and am as competitive as I want to be. I'm faster than some, but not as fast as others. My tire budget is 6 tires a year (Hankooks for less than $1k a season) and they are a great race tire. (That $1k is no where near my biggest expense for a race season.) I could buy new tires every weekend (or every session) if I wanted, but the 6 usually get me 16-18 sessions each (4-5 weekend a year).

I'm on a Chump team and we have run one event with tw200 tires that were great for what they were. We have run over 16 hours on the tires and they still look new. They are great for Chump racing, but I have no interest in using them on my club racing car. Three wide in turn one at Mid-Ohio on the Hankooks is awesome! Three wide in turn one at Mid-Ohio on the tw200 tires isn't something I'd look forward to (or even probably try). Those tw200 tires don't do what the race tires can.

I wonder how a set of these tires would do shaved down to 1-2/32 and maybe some special treatment...

[JeffYoung]

So for the Street Tire proponents here, what is the real end game?

To just run your cars for fun on Street Tires (because you will not be competitive) in existing IT classes?

Or to slowly change the culture of IT so that we change the rules to ban R compounds?

Either is fine, I just want to know where you are going as I decide what to do. I think the diea that in the long run these tires will be cheaper is dumb, honestly. Folks will do just what they have done before: tire companies will get into a war to make a stickier and ultiatemly more expensive and not as long lasting tire at the same TW rating, racers will shave and throw tires away after a few cycles, and so on.

This isn't the answer to "how to make club racing cheaper." So long as we understand that, and what the goal is, I agree the discussion is a good one.

[joeg]

I sort of agree with Jeff...people will just start shaving, "truing" and treating these "street" tires--as well as frequently buy new ones (there is no arguing that a new, fresh tire--no matter what the compound--will be better than an older one) such that the perceived savings will not be that great.

Currently, the best tire deal is the SM Hoosier, but clearly its size does not work for everyone. The SM H20 Wet is even a better deal, as it is cheaper than a 13 inch. It would be neat to try and get Hoosier to get some other R6 sizes to that price point.

Don't know what the solution is, but tires have always been the biggest racing headache.

[gran racing]

In order for Hoosier to get that price point, they received a multi year spec tire deal. One tire size for all. Much different than doing all at that price point.

Jeff, what we're hearing are two different outlooks. There are those in Chip's camp, then others more extreme. For those in the more extreme stance, I look at this like the Toyo tires in SM. Don't know, maybe that's not the same for some reason?

Regardless, this is a good discussion and am pretty sure we all agree on making this more affordable.

[adamjabaay]

as a new ITA guy, coming from Lemons racing, I'd agree with the FUN aspect of street tires on these cars....they are great

I ran an hpde on my lemons star specs in my ITA car, and it was 2 and 3 seconds off my pace at that that track....but it was more "entertaining"...a bit looser, etc

I plan on running cast off SM6 on it this year anyway (an 89 crx si, so the size works nice), and due to being a tight-budget guy I'll likely keep running those, or whatever SM runs on, for years. Cast offs are even cheaper than street tires, if you mount your own tires especially!

I'd be FINE with IT on street tires as a rule, but I'm obviously fine with it as it.....this is about fun for me.... If I ever have the skill and budget to be a regular winner I doubt my feeling would change much