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Thread: December 2013 Fastrack

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Amy View Post
    Agree. I'm not concerned about the numbers part, it's the difference in performance and safety equipment that gives me pause. I have experience with my STL car in the same group at the GTL cars, and the speed difference can be pretty significant. - GA
    I can see an issue between a backmarker IT and a front-running GTL car, but they already run in the same race group here anyway. The only difference would be the letters on the door for SWDIV.
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  2. #102
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    the rearrangement of groupings to get IT, prod, and GTL all in separate groups to allow for IT triple dipping would be very difficult in some places as usually 2 of the 3 are run together.

    overall I think IT in GT is rather silly, and while I don't object on the grounds of danger I'd suggest it might be better to let the prod or ST cars run as GT in their current prep. IT in ST and P, P and/or ST in GT, GT in P... double dipping for everyone!

    then we can consolidate everything to 2 categories of stock tubs (T, IT, ST) and flared fenders (P, GT) and call it a day.

  3. #103
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    I respect Dick's thoughts but I just don't buy it's not a grab at car counts to save classes. IT to Prod makes sense but IT to GT? That's a huge prep jump and if you were interested in tube frames and the like, you would already be there or in Prod looking to make a move.
    Andy Bettencourt
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Bettencourt View Post
    I respect Dick's thoughts but I just don't buy it's not a grab at car counts to save classes. IT to Prod makes sense but IT to GT? That's a huge prep jump and if you were interested in tube frames and the like, you would already be there or in Prod looking to make a move.
    The majority of the cars in all of those classes around here are tub Miatas. Change the tires, add some fender flares, cut the windshields off, stick a cam and SIR in it, IT-->GTL!
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Bettencourt View Post
    I respect Dick's thoughts but I just don't buy it's not a grab at car counts to save classes. IT to Prod makes sense but IT to GT? That's a huge prep jump and if you were interested in tube frames and the like, you would already be there or in Prod looking to make a move.
    Well for one thing, IMHO, GT will not survive if they only cater to tube frame cars.
    dick patullo
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by dickita15 View Post
    Well for one thing, IMHO, GT will not survive if they only cater to tube frame cars.
    Agree.
    Andy Bettencourt
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by dickita15 View Post
    Well for one thing, IMHO, GT will not survive if they only cater to tube frame cars.
    GT tube cars are legacy racing, at best. Most major, popular racing worldwide (ignoring NASCAR*) is production/tub-based. All the remaining tubeframe sillhouette cars are either hanging on by their fingernails or heavily-subsidized by manufacturers (SCCA Trans-Am, DTM, and some Continental cars come immediately to mind).

    GT2 was basically (at least from my perspective) "rescued" this past year by the inclusion of tub cars (Porsche GT3, Super Touring Over) and that's got a lot of people talking about how to include tub cars in GTL.

    Tubs are where it's at, baby. Now if we could only get GT2 to run on 200TTW DOTs we'd be in the money...

    - GA

    * And if NASCAR actually ran tub cars from their manufacturers? I'd start watching that s**t again, even the ovals...
    Not my circus...not my monkeys...

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Amy View Post
    * And if NASCAR actually ran tub cars from their manufacturers? I'd start watching that s**t again, even the ovals...
    They call that V8 Supercars.
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt93SE View Post
    They call that V8 Supercars.
    Amen! Some of the best racing worldwide, along with BTCC and WTCC.

    All tub cars.
    Not my circus...not my monkeys...

  10. #110
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    BTCC/ Aussie V-8 (s) --Perhaps not really tub cars any longer--more like hybrid tubs with a spec tubular front end from the firewall forward.

    Brazilian stock cars used weird looking tube frames.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeg View Post
    BTCC/ Aussie V-8 (s) --Perhaps not really tub cars any longer--more like hybrid tubs with a spec tubular front end from the firewall forward.
    True. That's how we evolved into GT tube cars: allow me to "cage" my car to any point for safety, then we did it to the suspension and drivetrain mounts, and allow me to cut out the sheet metal in between and to "replace" all panels with plastic to reduce weight...so tell me again why I need to start with a production tub...?

    Brazilian stock cars are nuts, more like DTM cars.
    Not my circus...not my monkeys...

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Amy View Post
    * And if NASCAR actually ran tub cars from their manufacturers? I'd start watching that s**t again, even the ovals...
    Yep. GM SS RWD thing, Chrysler Challenger, Ford Mustang. Be good stuff.

    EDIT-Not sure where the rest of my original post on siphoning of IT went, but looks like Kirk covered it better than I.
    Last edited by Ron Earp; 12-10-2013 at 10:11 PM.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chip42 View Post
    the rearrangement of groupings to get IT, prod, and GTL all in separate groups to allow for IT triple dipping would be very difficult in some places as usually 2 of the 3 are run together.

    overall I think IT in GT is rather silly, and while I don't object on the grounds of danger I'd suggest it might be better to let the prod or ST cars run as GT in their current prep. IT in ST and P, P and/or ST in GT, GT in P... double dipping for everyone!

    then we can consolidate everything to 2 categories of stock tubs (T, IT, ST) and flared fenders (P, GT) and call it a day.
    Isn't it more likely this would be used at a majors weekend with someone double dipping in GT and Prod?

    Although personally I don't buy the "get a taste of it" argument. So I qualify 10 seconds slower and never see another car in my class, how is that getting a "taste" of a class? And even if it is successful, how does that help? one less IT car and one more prod car is a win-win, in what universe? It smacks of the usual attitude that national classes are "better" and faster classes are "better".

    Edit: I hope that didn't sound too bitter and cynical.
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Bettencourt View Post
    I respect Dick's thoughts but I just don't buy it's not a grab at car counts to save classes. IT to Prod makes sense but IT to GT? That's a huge prep jump and if you were interested in tube frames and the like, you would already be there or in Prod looking to make a move.
    Ditto. Sorry, it's a blatant numbers grab.

    The IT-to-Prod allowance is really only a matter of degree, since we could damn near do that before with Prep 2.

    The GT option, if it's done the same way as the Prod option, where one can run in the same class where the car would be correctly classified, is beyond silly. Completely irrespective of lap times - 18 seconds, thinking of a MkIII Golf and comparing lap records at VIR, ITB to GT3 - there is exactly NO way that someone is going to decide to "modify their cars to meet the requirements" of the GT category.

    No.

    Way.

    I think of it like this: If nobody actually turns their IT car into a GT car in the next 5 years, is it evidence that the policy is a failure? So we'll kill it...? No. Because that's not the actual intention of the rule change.

    K

    EDIT - And at some level, this is pretty insulting. IT isn't good enough to be a National (now Majors) category, but it's GREAT to add to the existing classes to make up their failing numbers. That's like telling a woman she's fine to have sex with, but you can't be seen in public with her.
    Last edited by Knestis; 12-10-2013 at 08:50 PM.

  15. #115
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    Maybe I'm being a get off my lawn old codger, but this strikes me as a clear survive at all costs numbers grab.

    Man, IT is the clubs whipping bitch. Need numbers for your category?? Invite IT!

    While there might not have been an actual person saying "Use IT to fix your woes, but don't let them go national!" over the years, it sure has worked out that way.



    It's a shame how SCCA has treated IT over the years, and how they've squandered the resource.
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  16. #116
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    Maybe, Jake, things have worked out exactly as the men behind the curtain wanted. IT got turned into the Soylent Green necessary to feed the Majors (nee, National) classes that they really wanted to survive. Problem is, they've sucked most of the life out of it, with natural turnover (etc.) taking its toll.

    Hmmm?

    K

  17. #117
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    I can tell you from my personal conversations with The Wizard, that the original intent was to take IT National. When that failed, Wizard said "eff it" and turned his attentions to bigger things....making B and D Prepared National, changing it to STO and STU, and adding a suspiciously-IT-Plus-like class, Super Touring Light.

    Say what you will about The Wizard, but looks like Mission Accomplished to me... - GA
    Not my circus...not my monkeys...

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knestis View Post
    Maybe, Jake, things have worked out exactly as the men behind the curtain wanted. IT got turned into the Soylent Green necessary to feed the Majors (nee, National) classes that they really wanted to survive. Problem is, they've sucked most of the life out of it, with natural turnover (etc.) taking its toll.

    Hmmm?

    K
    Eating your young is a sure-fire way to extinction.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Amy View Post
    I can tell you from my personal conversations with The Wizard, that the original intent was to take IT National. When that failed, Wizard said "eff it" and turned his attentions to bigger things....making B and D Prepared National, changing it to STO and STU, and adding a suspiciously-IT-Plus-like class, Super Touring Light.

    Say what you will about The Wizard, but looks like Mission Accomplished to me... - GA

    K

    EDIT - And at some level, this is pretty insulting. IT isn't good enough to be a National (now Majors) category, but it's GREAT to add to the existing classes to make up their failing numbers. That's like telling a woman she's fine to have sex with, but you can't be seen in public with her.


    Both of these statements are very true. IT gets poached to prop up numbers of other classes as long as they know their place. Not good enough for the big dance, but good enough to pad the entries. Just wait and see the exodus in 2015 when the Runoffs come to Daytona. Many new EP builds by IT drivers happening. Would have had 10 times that in IT entries if they were allowed.
    Last edited by lateapex911; 12-14-2013 at 01:02 AM.
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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Amy View Post
    GT tube cars are legacy racing, at best. Most major, popular racing worldwide (ignoring NASCAR*) is production/tub-based. All the remaining tubeframe sillhouette cars are either hanging on by their fingernails or heavily-subsidized by manufacturers (SCCA Trans-Am, DTM, and some Continental cars come immediately to mind).

    GT2 was basically (at least from my perspective) "rescued" this past year by the inclusion of tub cars (Porsche GT3, Super Touring Over) and that's got a lot of people talking about how to include tub cars in GTL.

    Tubs are where it's at, baby. Now if we could only get GT2 to run on 200TTW DOTs we'd be in the money...

    - GA

    * And if NASCAR actually ran tub cars from their manufacturers? I'd start watching that s**t again, even the ovals...


    GT2 already had the Porsche... and they actually dumped a bunch more tube cars in too. <--- No pun intended

    And you are half getting your wish... if I'm reading properly, they are putting GT2/ST cars back on DOT tires. annoying... and they didn't slow down everyone that they need to, only the winner who had a car hot on his tail, so why not that car too? hmmm...
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