Self-policing +

[gran racing]

why doesn't anyone get on the MARRS group for not traveling to the ARRC in droves?

Very stong fields, in general much more so than the ARRC. Heck, ITB Labor Day had a 30 plus ITB field. I'd MUCH rather attend that enent in an ITB car than get an automatic second at the ARRC and spend more money doing so. Maybe that's the case with FL cars but when the ARRC was very well attended for IT cars, we saw many people travel great distances as it was much more of the IT championship, it was odd more FL cars didn't attend.

I've often heard of the FL gentleman's agreement. True or not, some of the cars I've seen with obvious items... Gesh, and some of the IT-7 cars. LOL

[Ron Earp]

So, reading between the lines here what some of your are suggesting is that those that don't attend the ARRC are, or more likely to be, cheaters? Really?

Where I'm from the reasons for not attending to ARRC have nothing to do with tech and everything to do with light fields, little competition, a diluted spread out event requiring two days off work, and the ARRC being immediately following three race weekends (SIC, Goblin's Go, VIR 13hr).

I've been to Daytona and witnessed the cars that Jeff mentioned - lots of little minor details with some FL cars that were non-compliant for IT. But the cars that were winning the races and running up front seemed to be legal to me. The folks that had non-compliant IT mods were new, not competitive, and seemed to just basically want to be out on track. That you guys don't pull them aside and get it corrected is another matter, but the front runners had none of these issues.

[gran racing]

Ron, I think in the past there have been some eyebrows raised when really fast cars close to RA, who race at RA, skipped the ARRC. Fields were really strong, and there were solid compliance checks. Since at the majority of events there are little checks and balances on cars, cars that attended the ARRC had more crediblity. Of course there are many reasons why people didn't attend, but some were suspect.

[Chip42]

Very stong fields, in general much more so than the ARRC. Heck, ITB Labor Day had a 30 plus ITB field. I'd MUCH rather attend that enent in an ITB car than get an automatic second at the ARRC and spend more money doing so.

And this was all I was saying about NOW. I don't know why fast cars didn't run the ARRC, but as Ron has said countless times, a SARRC jacket is worth a lot more to us in the south than an ARRC win. that's even more true now that the ARRC fields are so weak.

[spawpoet]

I think the problem is just the obviousness of some of it that is clearly tolerated or ignored. Having been to Daytona all of twice, it's not fair of me to make any generalizations, but both times my perception was:

1. The cars running up front in the classes I care about/race in or with (ITR, S and A) were legal;

2. But some of the mid packers had some pretty obvious cheats that folks didn't seem to mind: lexan windows with holes, missing windshield wipers and shaved door handles for aero, a carbon fiber trunk decklid, a guy claiming to run a mid 2000s 911 in ITR, and so on.

I get why fixing the obvious stuff isn't really a priority since they do not appear to be front running cars, but at hte same time the obviuos gives that appearance that things aren't quite right down thataway, when in fact they mostly are (especiall at the front of the field).

The guy in the Porsche with the lexan ran maybe 6-7 race weekends over two years down here, and has since moved on precisely because he didn't fit. He got a lot of attention on the forum here as being representative of the culture of Florida IT racing when he really wasn't one of us. He just didn't understand what IT was all about. One of those guys who builds a car the way he wants and only then tried to find a place to race it. He was actually a nice guy, just naive.

[spawpoet]

Dave, I am also a CFR driver. I have run every event (barring mechanical failure - I was not driving the weekend the big wreck in turn 1) at long course Sebring event in the last few years.. Heck we have even had good races in the past where prior Duece, yourself, and myself goof around and talked after qualifying as we were qualified 1,2,3 and I was asking you how you liked the V710s.

As a CFR driver, it took a JDM motor swap in his CRX for me to do something. Members of the CFR group told me that I should not do anything as he is a good guy. It was very stressful. The sad thing is that car was leading the points in the region that year.. no one protested. Does no one care?

People are afraid of the protest process, with arguably good reason. I enjoy racing everyone you mentioned. I have worked with on or raced within inches of each person you listed.


To put this idea to that FLA and CFR is cheating, which I am a member of, to rest I think it would be good to do something. When I do travel the Southeast I hear about cars "down there". It would be nice to do something about it, put the issue to bed and make CFR the shining example of a fun and fair place to race. Do you think of what I am proposing a bad idea?

I find it a little disturbing that our stewards tried to talk you out of protesting a guy who had an engine swap in an IT car. Kind of sad. If CFR isn't regularly weighing the top finishers at most events (as was mentioned further up in the thread) that's a problem too. It's one thing for trivial things to be ignored, but a JDM swap?


IMHO the two things that can easily be done down here to change competitors behavior is 1- the region(s) itself needs to change and create a culture that encourages compliance. That means scaling the top finishers after every race. Ask people to open their hoods at impound. It doesn't have to be invasive or expensive to at least encourage people to be compliant. At least we can TRY to emphasize that it's an issue, but I think the region itself needs to step up here. I know we are supposed to self police, but they could help in building the culture. 2- Appeal to peoples conscience. Yeah, the real assholes will run this red light 8 days a week, but it's basically free. Draft a handout for the IT competitors that points out common cheats, and ask people to change. It can't hurt. And in some cases you are educating people that really don't know the rule set well. Especially with all the racers we have that come over from NASA or FARA for a few races. Anyway, we will be at the Turkey Trot, so feel free to stop by if you want any other support with this.

[D. Ellis-Brown]

Dr. Knestis, No, we are running box stock VW ABA injectors..... As I told you back in 2006-2007..... Our rationale for trying a different injector, was the verbage in the ITCS, section D.1.a .... you disagreed with our "liberal" interpretation... I accepted your reasoning..... We submitted a rules change request to the IT committee, following the same rationale and logic that permitted carbureted cars to change jets, needles and metering rods within the stock carburetor(s)..... Then we should be able to change injectors. Our request was not approved. I accepted that. Thru extensive dyno time, and going to a different engine management computer we have been able to overcome the AFR issues. Now to Mr. Babson's comment, about my driving ability, well I'll let my peers judge my driving ability. I don't recall any of them running into the back of me. Enough said. As far as why I don't go the ARRC. I sent my entry in one year. I then realized we would be spending about $3000.00. for the week in Atlanta. That was about 1/3 of my race budget. My sponsors are all within Central Florida, they would see no benefit. Due to the expense, and having nothing to gain or prove, I cancelled our entry. I can race against Deuce Keane, Chi Ho and other excellent drivers in CFR for a lot less. I'm very proud to be racing in CFR, and against some of the finest ITB cars in the country.

Respectfully, David Ellis-Brown

[jjjanos]

Now to Mr. Babson's comment, about my driving ability, well I'll let my peers judge my driving ability. I don't recall any of them running into the back of me.

Wouldn't that be an indication of the driving ability of your peers?

[Knestis]

Dr. Knestis, No, we are running box stock VW ABA injectors..... As I told you back in 2006-2007..... Our rationale for trying a different injector, was the verbage in the ITCS, section D.1.a .... you disagreed with our "liberal" interpretation... I accepted your reasoning..... We submitted a rules change request to the IT committee, following the same rationale and logic that permitted carbureted cars to change jets, needles and metering rods within the stock carburetor(s)..... Then we should be able to change injectors. Our request was not approved. I accepted that. Thru extensive dyno time, and going to a different engine management computer we have been able to overcome the AFR issues ...

Thanks, David, for the reassurance.

K

[quadzjr]

Dave you going to the trots? I would like to pick your brain on how we can shake this legality dark cloud over cfr/fla.

[Chip42]

FWIW, entry numbers for the Turkey Trot at Sebring Thanksgiving weekend:

Group 1 SM, SM5 56
Group 2/3 FA, FC, FF, FM, S2, CSR, DSR, FV, F500, CF, FS, FB, FE, FST, F600 24
Group 4 ITC, EP, FP, HP, GTL, STL, T4 56
Group 5 T3, SRF, LEG, SPU, STU, B-Spec 35
Group 6 ITB, ITS, ITA, IT7, ITR, IT7R 58
Group 7 GT1, GT2, GT3, AS, T1, T2, GTA, SPO, ASR, ITO, STO 21

The IT breakdown is
R = 9 (2 toyotas, 7 BMWs)
S = 17 (3 aren't MAzdas)
A = 17 (mostly miatae)
B = 14 (2 'rolas, 2 mustangs, 2 MR2s, 2 accords, 3 A3s, 3 A2s)
C = 1 (Miki's A1)

[Ron Earp]

B has some diversity. It reads like your S class is Spec 2nd Gen RX7.

[spawpoet]

B has some diversity. It reads like your S class is Spec 2nd Gen RX7.

Thanksgiving weekend will be a bloodbath for the mosquitoes at Sebring. Hell, we're smoking too.

[Chip42]

there's plenty of Miata in that list, too.

[Ron Earp]

there's plenty of Miata in that list, too.

And people refer to the SCCA as the Mazda Car Club. Boy they sure are wrong.

[Chip42]

Ron, the point of my posting the entries is to highlight the fields we get in CFR as the incentive to not travel. Parricularly in B, where I play, the depth is good. But there are strong cars and good numbers in all IT classes here (not C). Yeah, I'm mid pack, but up in the SARRC I'm dead last of 2 maybe 3 cars. The only reason I travel north is to work and occasionally drive other tracks, when my cars not getting repaired that is.

[D. Ellis-Brown]

Steve, No we are not going to the TT, mainly family, #1.... Yes we can talk, willing to listen, I really don't see a dark cloud over CFR or Florida. Issues with legality are no more severe here than any racing region with the huge fields of cars that we have. Are there some issues that need to be worked, Yes, I am not naïve, but is this something that is unique to our regions? I am willing to hear what you are so concerned about. And maybe collectively, with all concerned, decide if something can should be done. As a long time IT competitor, please do not hesitate to get in touch with me. Both Louis Boustani and David Boles will be at the TT, They will know how to get in touch me directly.

Respectfully, David Ellis-Brown

[quadzjr]

Steve, No we are not going to the TT, mainly family, #1.... Yes we can talk, willing to listen, I really don't see a dark cloud over CFR or Florida. Issues with legality are no more severe here than any racing region with the huge fields of cars that we have. Are there some issues that need to be worked, Yes, I am not naïve, but is this something that is unique to our regions? I am willing to hear what you are so concerned about. And maybe collectively, with all concerned, decide if something can should be done. As a long time IT competitor, please do not hesitate to get in touch with me. Both Louis Boustani and David Boles will be at the TT, They will know how to get in touch me directly.

Respectfully, David Ellis-Brown

I think together we can come up with something. I do not want to accuse or upset anyone. Obviously.. if people are cheating (performance enhancements not piddly stuff) they are going to be resistant. We are trying to reach out to all the CFR folks i. I am excited to see what what boustani in the ex Ronie car will do. The car was fast before and it will be interesting to see how quickly he adapts to the new car.

Unfortunately.. CFR does have a dark cloud outside CFR.. well the term is typically "FL guys". So take that for what it is I guess. Should we care what others regions think about us? That is debatable. Though from talking to a lot of IT drivers they think they have to cheat to win. Which is complete bogus as if you look at the top cars in CFR they are legal, and from time to time they have gone to the ARRC and passed their scrutiny (which is the only tear down in the SE as far as I am aware.)

Sometimes it is new drivers you see doing the bad stuff.. So my thinking is if we get our group get involved we can nip that thinking in the bud and put us behind us and become a more attractive place to play.

Family #1, understandable. We are all doing this for wood plaques, beer mugs, and friends

[quadzjr]

Just to respond for closure. I spoke to a good bit of the ITB field at Sebring Turkey trots.. I learned basically that though my intentions were good and a lot supported it that it is way more complicated and would be extremely hard to police. Especially for marques that are not well known or older cars.

the next race at Sebring I will see if there is something we can do. I have talked to some and they loved the idea.. I talked to business owners that need to make sure that they do the right thing.. I talked to people that were generally just happy with the way things are, and I talked to people that believes that there is very little cheating.. okay.. so now what?

I do know that the CFR/FL region is not alone in this issue.. so what is the point of battling it? I have stopped and asked that question to myself as I tear another builders motor down tonight. so far every motor I have torn down whether it came from up north or down here in the south has been illegal in one way or another. This last motor was laughable.. I was actually looking for legal bits at the end.. This IT motor had an illegal crank, rods, pistons, CR, rings, head (porting), cams, valves, cam gears, oil pump, etc..

This motor actually did race, once.. it also blew up that race.. so no harm no foul I guess, but still.. It makes me question.. what is the point.

It just sickens me.

I will continue to see if there is something that can happen. It is NOT just a CFR/FL thing.. as I mentioned before. I am going to the machine shop tomorrow with 3 disassembled engines.. and hopefully I can get 1 good one out of the lot and not spend a metric shit ton in the process. Hopefully it will be completed before the next race at Sebring.

[RSTPerformance]

Just to respond for closure. I spoke to a good bit of the ITB field at Sebring Turkey trots.. I learned basically that though my intentions were good and a lot supported it that it is way more complicated and would be extremely hard to police. Especially for marques that are not well known or older cars.

the next race at Sebring I will see if there is something we can do. I have talked to some and they loved the idea.. I talked to business owners that need to make sure that they do the right thing.. I talked to people that were generally just happy with the way things are, and I talked to people that believes that there is very little cheating.. okay.. so now what?

I do know that the CFR/FL region is not alone in this issue.. so what is the point of battling it? I have stopped and asked that question to myself as I tear another builders motor down tonight. so far every motor I have torn down whether it came from up north or down here in the south has been illegal in one way or another. This last motor was laughable.. I was actually looking for legal bits at the end.. This IT motor had an illegal crank, rods, pistons, CR, rings, head (porting), cams, valves, cam gears, oil pump, etc..

This motor actually did race, once.. it also blew up that race.. so no harm no foul I guess, but still.. It makes me question.. what is the point.

It just sickens me.

I will continue to see if there is something that can happen. It is NOT just a CFR/FL thing.. as I mentioned before. I am going to the machine shop tomorrow with 3 disassembled engines.. and hopefully I can get 1 good one out of the lot and not spend a metric shit ton in the process. Hopefully it will be completed before the next race at Sebring.

Start by telling us where these motors came from... Car, Driver, Team, motor builder, etc. I think most of the bigger teams winning up here in the northeast know that a lot is on the line if something they built came back illegal. It's not the best option but it is a start.

Also get to know your tech and stewards well... Maybe even work in tech to build a relationship and learn what tests/items could be tested. Then work with them to make it happen.

Good luck;

Raymond "learned a long time ago to try not and complain at the local level, the races are put on by your friends for your friends, help them and you can help make things happen... Mostly because they can't do everything and need some help" Blethen