Self-policing +

[Greg Amy]

I think you overstate the resource requirements.

Sooo....pioneer doing this on a local level, prove that it works, and propose it to happen on a national level.

Or is this another one of those "well, *I* don't want to do it, *I'm* the one with the idea. I want *someone else* to do it."

Last several years, every time I complain about something, someone has been smart enough to hand me a volunteer form to fill out for a new license.that's how I became a National scrutineer, and that's how I became a steward (Regional, as of this year).

Here's your form. Make it happen. You have my support.

- GA

[Flyinglizard]

Prod does just that, Max camlift, max throttle body. I can use shifter bushings that wont melt,4130 Axle bits, big hubs etc. I can remove stuff that is too valuable to hit stuff with.

For IT, and SCCA in general, we need to be very gentle in our approach.
I would start with. "Please bring supporting paper work showing the cam, gearset, and cranking compression for your car. We are trying to gather information for these cars to help level the field. If other racers show the same data, than we will have updated information. This data should be shown in the FSM. "
Pro style Build sheets should be encouraged. Signed by the owner.

Somebody needs to record the data in a book that is at the track. Match the car to the data /driver/ lap times. Take charge.
NASA has a class guy that covers this kind of stuff. At the race.
** One guy in charge of each class. Not 5 volunteer tech guys/girls/ for all of the classes.**
non vested/non participant . He may race another class. He/ she must be totally committed to the best interest of the class . (not his own best interest)

That is one real issue I have with the current boards. Racers cant run their own class. Fox/hen etc.

Maybe allowing a spec cam lift is not a bad idea. Maybe it is the only way to live in a non perfect world. At least all of the cam s would be the same. And tech able . For the VW the 268 helps the Mk 2 run with the Mk 3s .


The most fun ever in the IT cars;
I ran a few Races for the VW Cup with NASA and also ran inside of track days. My rules allowed the 268 cam, 10/1 pistons,large TB for all of the cars,Mk1 Mk2, stock for Mk 3. They just had to meet the weight. (the rules matched what I had seen in the "IT" cars) WE had 4 cars and we added 25# per win. Inverted the grid each session and had a blast. Used points for overall winner but after 4 sessions, nobody cared as we were 3 wide most of the time. 3/4 pt = 1st. 2pt 2nd, etc.
These rules along with 180DOT tires could be a goodthing. Spec the cheater parts . On a local scale .

This may come back as Iam getting another deal going in the next few months.

[jjjanos]

So for the cars that are under process power.. even with 10/10ths builds.. do we get to cheat to get up to process power?

If your internals cannot be verified as verifiable stock parts, might as well. You are tech shed legal.

[jjjanos]

Sooo....pioneer doing this on a local level, prove that it works, and propose it to happen on a national level.

It cannot work on the regional level. Region takes your engine down entirely. All the parts are deemed legal or cannot be verified. You blow 175 HP for an ITC car. You tell them the cam is not stock. They DQ you. You appeal to the CoA. They look at the evidence. You tell them you were mistaken. You win.

Or, you keep your mouth shut. The Region cannot throw weight on your car -- your car is classified by national at a certain weight for a certain class.

Or is this another one of those "well, *I* don't want to do it, *I'm* the one with the idea. I want *someone else* to do it."

They need someone on a weeknight to watch a teardown who knows nothing about being in tech, I'll give up a night, but not if it all gets tossed by the CoA.

[manny]

I have to agree with Flyinglizard because it would be so much easier to tech. Give a max spec cam lift, throtle body/carb size, max compression and all on the 180 DOT rubber. I'll bet we see alot of closer racing. Kind of levels out the field and puts it back in the drivers hands. Just my $.02. Turkey trot here we come

[gran racing]

I have to agree with Flyinglizard because it would be so much easier to tech. Give a max spec cam lift, throtle body/carb size, max compression and all on the 180 DOT rubber.

And how exactly does this impact the many, many cars that are classified? So now the cars can be teched easily, but the paridody we've been after is blown.

[Ron Earp]

And how exactly does this impact the many, many cars that are classified? So now the cars can be teched easily, but the paridody we've been after is blown.

You'd need to start over with classing. It's been discussed on the board before, but you could make a really nice class using the following input parameters:

Displacement
Valve area

While keeping valve lift and compression set to a class standard. Everything else is free to modify, carbs can change to EFI as they like, build your intake, t-body, etc. The rules are all about airflow in the motor and how much displacement you have.

The advantage of this system is that it would assume all competitors will maximize their engine and therefore, with the assigned weight being based on displacement and valve area, the cars will simply increase in weight as the horsepower increases. A specific formula using displacement and valve area would have to be developed but I think there is a good solution to the problem.

No sense in discussing it though because something like this will never happen.

[Greg Amy]

I only suggested the above (standard cams and throttle body) as a "reductio ad absurdum". Doing something like that would be a wholesale complete re-vamp of the core Improved Touring philosophy, and would likely have a less possibility than a snowball's chance in Hell. If someone can legitimately convince the Club that such a wholesale change in IT philosophy is warranted due to existing regulatory shortcomings and the high risk of rampant cheating, I suggest the Club would not waste any time on it and would instead cancel the category entirely and mold it into existing categories.

Just my 2 cents, of course.

Better the devil you know.

- GA

P.S.: Seriously, we're still beating that dead "street tires" horse? Really? Let gooooo, Luke....

[Ron Earp]

Seriously, we're still beating that dead "street tires" horse? Really? Let gooooo, Luke....

Second that. Not gonna happen. Like Street Tires, race in CrapCan.

[quadzjr]

I have to agree with Flyinglizard because it would be so much easier to tech. Give a max spec cam lift, throtle body/carb size, max compression and all on the 180 DOT rubber. I'll bet we see alot of closer racing. Kind of levels out the field and puts it back in the drivers hands. Just my $.02. Turkey trot here we come

Almost sounds like what he is proposing is STL.. set compression ratio and cam limits.. sounds familiar.

[Knestis]

I feel bad saying it but, given the personal goals and priorities reflected in some of the questions and comments here, IT may not be the droid you're looking for.

There are reasons that Prep 2 Prod is swiping some of the more serious ex-IT folks.

Equally, there's a reason that they are piloting LeCrapChumMonsCar-based rules for SCCA regional sprint races in New Jersey. Ditto the Florida street tire initiative...

...which should serve as a reminder that your region can do any danged thing you want. That's how IT came to be.

It's kind of GOOD for individuals that we have more options - and more accessible options - available now than has ever been the case. Whether it's good for the Club is debatable but there are choices.

K

[quadzjr]

I know.. lots of fun options out there. I enjoy racing in IT, I just want to reduce the cheating. Cheating makes it no fun. If my effot goes no where or I see that people do not want to be legal, or if I start getting protested in spite. Then I will move on. I am willing to work to make strides to change the culture of the good ole boy operation in CFR. If it bites me in the a$$ in doing so.. well just gives me a good reason to go somewhere else.

[AE86ITA]

Isn't there an instrument that looks like a lab in a suit case that connects to the spark plug hole and once the engine is rotated it calculates both displacement and compression ratio, all without having to open the engine.

Thanks,

I have seen in the past the use of this instrument and it is very accurate without any intrusion to the engine just remove a spark plug, screw this in it's place and turn the engine by hand.

It reads displacement and compression ratio and most racers will think twice about cheating on engine internals which is the inspection that take the most time and resources.

[D. Ellis-Brown]

We in Florida, CFR & Florida Region, Have some of the best prepared IT cars, and some of the best IT drivers in the nation, (Deuce Keane, Paul Ronie, Mike Van Steenburg, Jeff Cripe, Mike Flynn, Chi Ho, Norm Fuller, too many to list) Our Tech inspectors are some of the most qualified, The scales are always available as advertised in the Supps. For CFR, IT has one of the bread and butter grouping for our region for many years. I'm quite sure that will continue. If you can do well here, you should be able to do well anywhere. Right now, there some 10 ITB cars entered for next weekend at Sebring. I am proud of being part of the ITB community in CFR.

David Ellis-Brown

[Knestis]

Are you running stock fuel injectors, David? I'm asking in complete seriousness, since the recommendation you made to me when we were building our MkIII Golf was to do otherwise.

K

[lateapex911]

We in Florida, CFR & Florida Region, Have some of the best prepared IT cars, and some of the best IT drivers in the nation, (Deuce Keane, Paul Ronie, Mike Van Steenburg, Jeff Cripe, Mike Flynn, Chi Ho, Norm Fuller, too many to list) Our Tech inspectors are some of the most qualified, The scales are always available as advertised in the Supps. For CFR, IT has one of the bread and butter grouping for our region for many years. I'm quite sure that will continue. If you can do well here, you should be able to do well anywhere. Right now, there some 10 ITB cars entered for next weekend at Sebring. I am proud of being part of the ITB community in CFR.

David Ellis-Brown

We've seen Kip Van Steenburg, Flynn, and the Keanes at the ARRC, but I'm unaware of the others attending, and I've always found that unfortunate, considering the distance.

[Chip42]

We've seen Kip Van Steenburg, Flynn, and the Keanes at the ARRC, but I'm unaware of the others attending, and I've always found that unfortunate, considering the distance.

Flynn (AKA Irish Mike) has shown his stripes at the ARRC and many a runoffs and SICs, probably a SARRC championship in there, Chi Ho drives the protege that goes to the ARRC every year (was there this year but popped the motor on friday so went home).

Mike Van Steenburg has to be given due credit for all he's done in the past for IT and other classes. He ran the COTA and RdAtl Majors this year, too.

Ronie and Steve Ulbrik are SIC winners and Steve in particular travels all over the south east, though hasn't done the ARRC.

I could add other names to David's list: Scott Seck (ARRC traveler and well respected ITS driver), Dave Raymon (2x SARRC champ), and a TON of Majors level guys like Jay Griffin, Peter Shadowen, and that guy in the blue and silver SRF that wins everything.

the real question is "why incur the expense of leaving FL to drive against a smaller field?" CFR DOES have great, deep fields, and great drivers but we also have a (I think largely overblown) reputation for cheating. why doesn't anyone get on the MARRS group for not traveling to the ARRC in droves? for many of them it's a similar distance as for many florida racers - but they also have a good local grouping of cars that's closer and thus cheaper to run with.

[JeffYoung]

Flynn (AKA Irish Mike) has shown his stripes at the ARRC and many a runoffs and SICs, probably a SARRC championship in there, Chi Ho drives the protege that goes to the ARRC every year (was there this year but popped the motor on friday so went home).

Mike Van Steenburg has to be given due credit for all he's done in the past for IT and other classes. He ran the COTA and RdAtl Majors this year, too.

Ronie and Steve Ulbrik are SIC winners and Steve in particular travels all over the south east, though hasn't done the ARRC.

I could add other names to David's list: Scott Seck (ARRC traveler and well respected ITS driver), Dave Raymon (2x SARRC champ), and a TON of Majors level guys like Jay Griffin, Peter Shadowen, and that guy in the blue and silver SRF that wins everything.

the real question is "why incur the expense of leaving FL to drive against a smaller field?" CFR DOES have great, deep fields, and great drivers but we also have a (I think largely overblown) reputation for cheating. why doesn't anyone get on the MARRS group for not traveling to the ARRC in droves? for many of them it's a similar distance as for many florida racers - but they also have a good local grouping of cars that's closer and thus cheaper to run with.

I think the problem is just the obviousness of some of it that is clearly tolerated or ignored. Having been to Daytona all of twice, it's not fair of me to make any generalizations, but both times my perception was:

1. The cars running up front in the classes I care about/race in or with (ITR, S and A) were legal;

2. But some of the mid packers had some pretty obvious cheats that folks didn't seem to mind: lexan windows with holes, missing windshield wipers and shaved door handles for aero, a carbon fiber trunk decklid, a guy claiming to run a mid 2000s 911 in ITR, and so on.

I get why fixing the obvious stuff isn't really a priority since they do not appear to be front running cars, but at hte same time the obviuos gives that appearance that things aren't quite right down thataway, when in fact they mostly are (especiall at the front of the field).

[quadzjr]

Dave, I am also a CFR driver. I have run every event (barring mechanical failure - I was not driving the weekend the big wreck in turn 1) at long course Sebring event in the last few years.. Heck we have even had good races in the past where prior Duece, yourself, and myself goof around and talked after qualifying as we were qualified 1,2,3 and I was asking you how you liked the V710s.

As a CFR driver, it took a JDM motor swap in his CRX for me to do something. Members of the CFR group told me that I should not do anything as he is a good guy. It was very stressful. The sad thing is that car was leading the points in the region that year.. no one protested. Does no one care?

People are afraid of the protest process, with arguably good reason. I enjoy racing everyone you mentioned. I have worked with on or raced within inches of each person you listed.

To put this idea to that FLA and CFR is cheating, which I am a member of, to rest I think it would be good to do something. When I do travel the Southeast I hear about cars "down there". It would be nice to do something about it, put the issue to bed and make CFR the shining example of a fun and fair place to race. Do you think of what I am proposing a bad idea?

[Knestis]

... Members of the CFR group told me that I should not do anything as he is a good guy.

Here's your problem.

It's a cultural norm established by the group. My conversations with David made it pretty clear to me that there was - and I would presume still is - a much more liberal interpretation prevails, that operationalizes everyday applications of the IT ruleset. It struck me then that it was (is) very much like what we applied in the Northwest in the '80s - that the rulebook was more a set of guidelines.

Hell, I "won" an ITC championship in a car that wasn't even listed in the ITCS because it was too new...

That played there then, and seems to play now in FL, like the unwritten rule that David explained to me, wherein anything that "isn't required for a race car" (e.g., hatch support struts) can be removed for weight. That simply is not in the written rules but the culture has chosen de facto to allow it.

K

EDIT - There's an additional dimension to this, as well - kind of the "broken windows" dynamic. A culture that allows easy obvious cheats enables individuals to push just a little further with their personal applications of the philosophy. If I hear from everyone that it's OK to take the hatch struts out of my car absent any allowance to do so, it's probably OK for me to mix and match the readily available alternate VW gear ratios floating around out there.