Self-policing +

[quadzjr]

I get that we are all friends and doing this for fun. But that is no excuse to cheat.

I am not saying or threatening to tear everyone down. Manny the reason why we need to change the culture is to get everyone on the same page. Alot of people think their cams are "OK" just because racing is for fun. That makes it not fun for the rest of us. Another thing is that the car that you think might be illegal might be different than the car that I think is illegal. I am suspicious of two maybe 3 cars. One front runner, the others behind me. So who knows.. maybe people think I am illegal.

There is alot of problems with legality. Not scalling cars and people know that is just one issue. One of my competitors came to me a few years ago at Sebring and asked if I was going to pull the 200lbs of balast out of the car as I knew they were not scaling cars afterwards. I said no because I knew it would be illegal. He was planning on doing it saying "who cares?"

I have had conversations about "grey area" what is blue printing. I know some cars have blended bowls as they think it is legal to do so.

I know others have gone in great detail of how to hide porting an aluminum cylinder heads with a certain process and finishing proceedure to make look stock again.

One person even qouted that I thought was funny and sad at the time "Cheating for Safety".

One person mentioned they had cams done.. I asked him what.. he says ohh nothing.. I don't know why I said that.. then drives by in the paddock with a noticable difference in valve overlap sound.

I know one person got blank crank timing pulley and cut the keyway where they wanted based on cam timing.

This does not sound like this is "for fun". It sounds to me that alot of people are doing this to win or move up. The point is we are doing this for fun, so do not cheat. If cheating makes your car more competitive either then you can look at other ways to handle it. Ask for it to be re-classed, work on driver, or work on ways (more expensive) to make it faster legally.

What kinda scares me is that the two people that race in CFR on here both admit there is issues but warn about the consequence of it.

I know Mike no longer runs in ITB.. Come back man!

[downingracing]

If you 'know' these folks are cheating with part X, write the paper! Knowing the exact part(s) to protest make the process easy! If you are worried about being that guy, get a friend or two to go in with you. You seem very passionate about stopping cheaters (which is a good thing)! Understand the process will cost you time and money but the class/sport will be better for it in the long run.

I've only ever filed one mechanical protest. Process was easy and the stewards were a big help with what to do and who to talk to. Cam protest was going to cost me $600-ish if I lost. Well worth it to get the cheaters out. Never made it to pulling the cam - we came town agreement that moved him to last in class for the races.. (This guy cost someone the championship the previous year with this illegal car. That wasn't going to happen 2 years in a row.)

[quadzjr]

As I have only watched on teh sidelines one tear down (One that was mentioned in detail this thread). I do not know all the cheats of all teh cars. I don't know if a MK2 VW has a cheater cam like the MK1 does. I don't know if the TB off another car looks just like the factory but larger on a honda.

How do you protest a ported cylinder head if the finish was put back to factory finish? I am sure that any test you could do would result in inconclusive. So it flows better, has no casting lines.. this could just be a 1 in 100 good head.

Maybe this is bigger than I can chew. I need some help.. anybody in the CFR want to join in my cause?

Manny IM me about the illegal car youare thinking about.. it maybe the same as mine and we can talk to them.

[Knestis]

So, to the CFR situation specifically...

Get a group of like-minded folks together informally, with the mission of getting the cheating under control.

Make sure you recognize that you're talking about shifting a culture, one that's pretty entrenched and supported (explicitly or tacitly) but a lot of folks with $$ invested in their current (cheaty) positions. Commit to the challenge.

Communicate as broadly as you can - starting right now - that y'all are on a mission. It's a friendly mission but some folks' feelings might get hurt. Give 'em as much warning (this off season) as possible to get compliant or risk getting dinged.

Define a set of specific strategies to actually DING SOMEONE and put them into action. The list from this conversation is a great start:

** Get friendly tech peeps to hold "impound all" with hoods open

** Vow to collectively - and informally - point out any obvious visible illegalities that can be seen to every entrant; reinforce that, as a group, the category DOES care about whether every car is compliant

** Pick some low-hanging cheater fruit - protest visible-and-consequential items on a few cars, and protest a couple of the more grievous suspected problems that require technical help, if not invasive tear downs (e.g., pull valve covers to compare easy cam measurements [lobe height minus base circle], gearbox ratios).

We've joked about "Florida IT" for the last decade. It's part of the reason I NEVER made any effort to come there. I got a clear picture of what we'd be walking into from David Ellis-Brown's "recommendations" of what we should do to make a MkIII VW fast, back when we built Pablo I...

It would be nice to see the accepted standards change.

K

[matt batson]

So, to the CFR situation specifically...

Get a group of like-minded folks together informally, with the mission of getting the cheating under control.

Make sure you recognize that you're talking about shifting a culture, one that's pretty entrenched and supported (explicitly or tacitly) but a lot of folks with $$ invested in their current (cheaty) positions. Commit to the challenge.

Communicate as broadly as you can - starting right now - that y'all are on a mission. It's a friendly mission but some folks' feelings might get hurt. Give 'em as much warning (this off season) as possible to get compliant or risk getting dinged.

Define a set of specific strategies to actually DING SOMEONE and put them into action. The list from this conversation is a great start:

** Get friendly tech peeps to hold "impound all" with hoods open

** Vow to collectively - and informally - point out any obvious visible illegalities that can be seen to every entrant; reinforce that, as a group, the category DOES care about whether every car is compliant

** Pick some low-hanging cheater fruit - protest visible-and-consequential items on a few cars, and protest a couple of the more grievous suspected problems that require technical help, if not invasive tear downs (e.g., pull valve covers to compare easy cam measurements [lobe height minus base circle], gearbox ratios).

We've joked about "Florida IT" for the last decade. It's part of the reason I NEVER made any effort to come there. I got a clear picture of what we'd be walking into from David Ellis-Brown's "recommendations" of what we should do to make a MkIII VW fast, back when we built Pablo I...

It would be nice to see the accepted standards change.

K

I remember racing against browns jetta once or twice at sebring...

lots of hp, and would just walk me on the straights...but driver needed some work. I could beat him on the club course, but on the long course his engine was too much for me

To quadzir...
If I was still running in the CFR with my old ITB car, I would be more than happy to join in with you.
There are probably more people than you realize who are willing to take up the cause with you...you might be surprised when you start walking around the paddock to talk to other IT guys.

This is a good start, as you can do some research and maybe connect online with other CFR ITB racers...
and then next race, just walk the paddock and say what you've been saying in here.

edit...
why would it cost so much to check cams? Isnt it just a valve cover removal? That shouldn't take more than ten minutes?

[downingracing]

Checking the cam requires it be removed and sent to Topeka to be checked on a cam doctor? Also requires providing a stock example to compare against. The stock example will be returned but the shipping and restocking fee are part of the fee. Also included are the costs associated with reinstalling the cam. That is how the bond price is decided. (Parts cost, shop labor rate and shipping)

[quadzjr]

so a stand, and run out gauge cannot be used to determine if it is illegal? even if it is not even close? obviously duration would not be able to be determined with putting a degree wheel on it, but that is not really what I am after. Well I guess I am after, but I was hoping for a simple check.

The know good example is what I have heard and what I have seen once, but I heard that since a competitor brought it, was not useable. Who in the heck is going to buy known good examples of car parts just to protest? Is the hope to sell it to the offender after the race?

[Greg Amy]

Checking cams used to be such a contentious process, because someone could easily change the camshaft profile and/or timing, without changing the lift, and it would be difficult to detect. It got to the point where all camshaft protests were required by the GCR to be sent to Topeka for inspection. I don't think we require that anymore; instead, I think those cam checking requirements were pulled and now the GCR notes that SCCA Technical Service "offers" such checks as a service.

If I were Chief of Tech and someone protested a camshaft for a basic lift check, that's something I can do with a v-block and a dial indicator. I do believe the GCR allows that now. But if someone wanted to check profile and/or timing, that's something I'd send to Topeka.

BTW, all Miata cam profiles are on file in Topeka, no "known good part" required.

Greg

[Knestis]

What Greg said. The typical cheater ITB cam will just be wrong - it won't be super-clever wrong. Particularly in a "everyone is doing it" culture. A 1.6 Rabbit I drove for a friend years ago would run in B with the BMW 2002s because it had a "268" cam. It idled fine. That same car ran in a sub-1500cc enduro class one year, minus the cam and plus a "1471cc" sticker on each side of the hood.

K

PS - http://www.techtonicstuning.com/cams.html

[callard]

Some years ago the IT-B BMW 2002 cheater cams had too much lift. After some trackside inspections and consequent DQs the new cheater cam had the proper lift but changes in lobe centers and duration. They are still in play. As are carbs with extra holes drilled in them.

[downingracing]

Those cam changes are found when checked on the cam doctor. If they are still in play - let some of the ITB racers who compete with the offending car know what to look for/file the protest on. Same goes for the carb modifications. From what I've seen (first hand), everyone knows who is cheating and what they are doing to cheat. But no one wants to be 'that guy' and write the paper.

This is my advice to everyone - Step up and be part of the solution.

[quadzjr]

Some years ago the IT-B BMW 2002 cheater cams had too much lift. After some trackside inspections and consequent DQs the new cheater cam had the proper lift but changes in lobe centers and duration. They are still in play. As are carbs with extra holes drilled in them.

Jebus, for a no pro racing series. People are going through this effort to win illegally. I guess people know how cumbersome the process works and know that rarely and very rarely they are going to be torn down. Yep it is all just for fun.. and everyone else is doing it... jeez.

There is advantages to more open rule sets.. but even then there is cheats you can perform. I am in the process of building a motor for another class and another car. Plenty of ways I could cheat, but I am not. I want to build the engine, release results and see what happens.

[callard]

Expensive protest for the cam. The 2002 head must be pulled to remove the cam and apply a Cam Doctor. And National did not have a known good cam for comparison last time we checked. Carb cheat discovery is cheap.

[downingracing]

Expensive protest for the cam. The 2002 head must be pulled to remove the cam and apply a Cam Doctor. And National did not have a known good cam for comparison last time we checked. Carb cheat discovery is cheap.

Only expensive if you are wrong...

[shwah]

One other thought on this issue. There are also a number of cases when people just "know" that someone else is cheating because there is no way they can be x seconds faster in the same car. The reality that we all learn as we continue to develop our driving, racecraft and car is that there is a lot of time to be gained by doing it right.

I can still remember my first race at Blackhawk farms. I was one of 4 or more VWs running in ITB. The winning car was an A2 Golf that set a track record. He was something like 3-4 seconds a lap faster than me, and I drove home wondering just how I could possibly get that fast with a legal car. A few years of consistent racing and car development down the road and I had that lap record about 1.5s lower. When I made my first visit to Mid-Ohio I learned a few weeks later that someone thought I was running an illegal motor that sounded like a 16v in ITB. I was not fastest in, and did not win a single session/race all weekend, but someone thought my legal car was a cheater car.

Not everyone that you know is cheating really is. That said, it does set the expectation that we all race legally if you have the conversation and are willing to write the paper to confirm the issue.

[gran racing]

Also requires providing a stock example to compare against.

In ITB where there are many old cars, how is this dealt with when it's not possible to purchase an OEM cam?

[Greg Amy]

In ITB where there are many old cars, how is this dealt with when it's not possible to purchase an OEM cam?

Zing!

Welcome to one of the main reasons why Improved Touring will never go Natio....errr, Majors.

- GA

[Andy Bettencourt]

In ITB where there are many old cars, how is this dealt with when it's not possible to purchase an OEM cam?

It may not be possible to purchase a 'new' OEM cam but I know if I was on a protest committee and I had 10 used cams in front of me that I sourced from all over the country and they all read within 'x' specs, and the protested cam was anomalous to those specs, I wouldn't have any issue booting it.

[JeffYoung]

Very true. I think it happens a couple years into racing. You think you are driving your ass off, and have developed your car to the max, but you haven't. So everyone in front of you has ot be cheating.

It's interesting to me but I think the prevalence of cheating decreases the further up the grid you go. At least in our run groups, we all know about what a "fast" ITS car should be capable of, and if something is out of whack it's either a real power to weight issue (say the unrestricted ITS E36s) or someone has something funny going on.

I'm pretty convinced that most of the fast ITS cars in the SEDiv if not all of them are legal. There may be some nits here and there but the big stuff? All legal.

One other thought on this issue. There are also a number of cases when people just "know" that someone else is cheating because there is no way they can be x seconds faster in the same car. The reality that we all learn as we continue to develop our driving, racecraft and car is that there is a lot of time to be gained by doing it right.

I can still remember my first race at Blackhawk farms. I was one of 4 or more VWs running in ITB. The winning car was an A2 Golf that set a track record. He was something like 3-4 seconds a lap faster than me, and I drove home wondering just how I could possibly get that fast with a legal car. A few years of consistent racing and car development down the road and I had that lap record about 1.5s lower. When I made my first visit to Mid-Ohio I learned a few weeks later that someone thought I was running an illegal motor that sounded like a 16v in ITB. I was not fastest in, and did not win a single session/race all weekend, but someone thought my legal car was a cheater car.

Not everyone that you know is cheating really is. That said, it does set the expectation that we all race legally if you have the conversation and are willing to write the paper to confirm the issue.

[Greg Amy]

It may not be possible to purchase a 'new' OEM cam but I know if I was on a protest committee and I had 10 used cams in front of me that I sourced from all over the country and they all read within 'x' specs, and the protested cam was anomalous to those specs, I wouldn't have any issue booting it.

Maybe. Probably not.

We had a situation at the Runoffs this year regarding a protest on a turbocharger. Competitior protested that the turbo was modified. Protestor could not obtain a new turbo to compare it against, because the turbo was no longer available as a new part. Protester contacted the original turbo supplier and had them ship, directly from them to SCCA at Road America, two warranty-returned turbos from that car for visual and dimensional comparison; those parts even had tags with the original VIN that they came from. SCCA Court of Appeals did not accept those as valid comparative parts.

Protestee won the appeal on those grounds, however it's likely that this turbo, which was an alternative allowance, will not be allowed in the future due to its inability to be satisfactorily scrutinized.

Bottom line: a reg that cannot be scrutineered is effectively not a reg. See definition of "tech shed legal".

- GA