Self-policing +

[gran racing]

That is disappointing Steve. But at least you're doing what you can to help resolve the situation. I've sometimes thought that a wall of shame should be created whether it be on the regional or national level. Basically it would be a public database listing illegal items found, the car owner, he builder, and any other information both parties wanted noted. Not just a one off in FasTrack, but a record kept for a period of time (7 years?). Maybe even list the costs that were associated. So X car was found to have an illegal crank. That cost that owner $800 in protest fees and 4 races to be missed.

I've had this discussion with my engine builder. He told me that there are plenty of illegal motors out there, but that doesn't make them better or faster. In many instances an illegal motor, not really well built the not tuned by an expert will be slower than a very well built and tuned engine.

In the end of the day, people need to be able to go home from a weekend of racing with their $5 trophy and actually be proud of their accomplishments. This can also be said regardless of where they finish in the field.

How to help this on a larger scale? John N. worked on a protest guide which would be great if it were expanded. If people better understand the process of protesting, have a guide that will assist them in making it less painful for all parties involved and have an idea of costs associated ahead of time, it makes it more likely to happen. Then that makes building illegal motors less tempting.

I've been racing for a while now and the protest process is intimidating to me. If I wanted to check a few items on someone's motor, I have absolutely no clue what the approximate costs would be. I know in some cases it varies greatly such as a BMW 2002 cam, but overall there are many cars that is not the norm.

What I think would be really cool is to have a guide like this created, posted on websites, and then have it handed out with the Sups at some races. Bet it would get more people talking and thinking twice.

[Knestis]

Bang. Into the wall of the culture of cheating.

Make it as complex as we want, at the end of the day the only way to change the culture is to be willing to piss off the cheaters. The protest process is already in place to do that and sadly, in some places, it's also necessary to piss of the people who are supposed to enforce the rules, but it's got to be used.

All the clever ideas in the world aren't going to fix that. Look at it this way, Steve - if folks (all those categories you listed) were disposed to solve the problem without resorting to pissing someone off, they would have done it already...

...and the problem wouldn't exist.

K

EDIT - So, go to the next race ready to file a protest. Pick something that's clear and doesn't require a big check or vagary regarding specs. Then do it. Be prepared to have someone call you a chickenshit, and expect that the increase in anxiety will make your weekend less fun. Get any other like-minded individuals you can find to do the same thing. The culture WILL CHANGE but that omelet is going to require some busted eggs.

[gran racing]

What if within a category or even just class such as Steve going for ITB, it starts off with a few friends protesting each other. Discuss what some potential items might be.

Pizza, beer, give the stewards plenty of advanced notice and tell them it will be a great training exercise. Do some fairly noninvasive stuff. The group of friends splits any costs associated whether found legal or not. A friend learns that is oh so wonderful engine has an illegal X part, use it as a learning experience and attempt to slowly change the culture.

A few years ago Ray and I spoke offline after some rumors popped up. We both agreed we'd be cool with either / both of us protesting each other. He offered to go through his car with me if I ever wanted to. It does help to change things even if slowly.

Pick something that's clear and doesn't require a big check or vagary regarding specs.

I know it's been mentioned in other threads but without spending a lot of time trying to find it, what are some good items? Any general ranges in prices?

[Flyinglizard]

Steve talk to tech. add in the supps , "all IT cars should be ready to back up their cam , compression and gear set numbers". Maybe write them under the hood or on the fender like the weight.
Post the gear chart for your car under the hood.
It is easy to check max cam lift for almost all of our cars. You dont need to pull the BMW cam out of the head . A simple dial indicator will suffice.
Pull VC, roll engine around- read the valve lift. Will it catch all cheater cams?? no. But 90% of upgrade cams increase the lift.Only The very expensive /custom grinds will not over lift but move the lobe centers and increase lift window.
A simple compression gauge will also give a good idea about internals. Can you protest on a compression gauge reading?, no.

Should racers be tossed at this low level inspection? **NO**
Start the "purple book" and make notes, talk with the racers about how to correct the situation.

Post all "Purple book" infractions on the bathroom wall

Some other help; A radar gun on the back straight.

The result wil be ; the cheaters wont race
Some legal cars wont race. Some cars will move to Prod. Slowley the class will stabilize .

Last, the MR2 is slow- get used to it.
Happy New year.
MM

[callard]

The first version of the illegal 2002 cams had too much lift. That problem went away when driver committees started doing friendly open hood cam checks. A few dudes were caught and those cams disappeared. The next "release" had proper lift but lobe centers and ramp angles provided the "winning edge". These cams are still in a few BMWs but require head removal ($$$) to check.

[Chip42]

cams are a real sticking point in our vintage class. under IT rules the cam must be stock equivalent, we aren't interested (specifically) in lift.

as they must be verifiably stock, the only "official" way to protest a cam is to send it AND A STOCK IN BOX SAMPLE to Topeka for a spin on the cam doctor.

yes - you can do an installed valve lift/lobe height measurement and toss out the overt cheaters that way, but without a VERIFIED OEM spec cam there's no baseline to pass or fail against, and NIB parts are getting thin for the bulk of IT cars. want to check valve springs? same boat. this makes cam and head work easy cheats because you can't officially do a damn thing about it without parts that you very often cannot get. the mazdaspeed protégé turbo issue at the 2013 runoffs showed how this works, and it's a BAD omen for stock-spec parts use.

re: Culture - it's a tough situation when a bunch of people are HAPPY with the status quo. we DON'T know what the amount of cheating is, and it's likely low in the "stuff that really that matters" sort of way. certainly VERY little of it is grey area exploitation of the rules, what is out there is more likely to be gross cheating like cams or CR (of what matters) and blanked out headlights or removed wipers for the stuff that doesn't matter or is a really obvious violation. the latter is easy to address, make a point of, etc.. but one of the things I noticed was a large number of people at our last outing at sebring who were wondering where the "problem" was because they were all happy with our run group AND were unaware of cheaters, or aware of one or two who didn't bother them because slow or because of whatever reason. the 1 or 2 were not widely agreed upon, either.

so I really don't know what is the "right" way to proceed. this is not a travelling circus, it's a small group of people running together more often than apart and who if illegal are only mildly so and mostly are FAR from full-out builds (some exceptions such as Mr. Boles' MkIII VW are VERY well prepared) so even if they WERE to travel, it wouldn't matter much. the guys who travel tend to be better prepared I nthe first place and with that come s a lot less of the easy cheaty stuff and more of the grey area pushing WHICH IS RACING, not "cheating" until the "law" decides you've pushed it too far. going around the small local group with threats of a protest can and very well might have the affect of driving guys who aren't the problem out along with those who are. I'm not saying that's the reason not to, but I do wonder if the juice is worth the squeeze.

the MR2 IS slow, no doubt about it. the goddamn thing is so unresponsive to IT mods it's almost funny at this point. I'm glad it's still seen by some as an overachiever because it helps me see that the club, despite the best intentions of a lot of very smart and well educated people trying to steer it, is never going to be perfect. and other, more cynical thoughts, too.