Self-policing +

[quadzjr]

So there has been a on going idea that they guys down in FL cheat their a$$ off. Now a lot of strides have been completed to correct that thinking but I think more has to be done. I know myself I know of illegal cars and due to the complexity of making a formal protest or in general like the guy that is offending I have done little to do any policing. The only time it came close to it was when I was beat out by a driver at Sebring. After the race I thought nothing of it, as getting passed in a straight was norm. Later I found that the driver had a JDM engine in his car. My crew and others in class went to talk to this person and the offender got very defensive and aggressive. He kept his points and his position but I never raced against him again. Later I saw he built an ITA car that rolled up to qualifying had about 10 things visually illegal with it. On grid for qualifying I just mentioned it to a few ITA guys there to bring it to their attention. I have not seen it since.

So my point of this is I am not a fan of hostility, but I am a fan of fair and clean competition. How would I implement or propose a blanket wide easy/cheap inspection. Inspection of the simple things like Cam lift and compression. Going on 6 years of racing in this series I have not once seen this whistler machine and have never seen valve lift checked in IT. I know this happens at the ARRC but a lot of the people down here do not run it.

So how do we get say the top 5 and whomever else that would like to join up for the next race at to get their CR and valve lift checked. After what Mike M. has said and others I think it would be good to do to flush out the illegal cars. I can see people that are illegal being highly against the idea. I also see people saying they do not want to pull the valve cover off their engine. My fear is that if a blanket protest initiated by me would result in a backlash of revenge (tearing the motor down to the crank just because before a race), obviously I would run my car as well, and I do no know what is involved with the whistler but I would be willing for inspection every race or random.

So how to accomplish this task? My assumption was all cars were pretty much legal up front but then realized that all of the cars sans 1 do not attend a race that your car actually gets inspected so what prevents them from another .5 CR? Or that cheater VW cam mike was talking about?

[Matt93SE]

Not much help in your area, but at the SWDIV Regional Championship race last weekend, they were playing with a whistler in impound. unfortunately it was reading low to cars with known values.

I offered to let them check my car (factory stock internals- never had head gasket off), but they never got to it.

Anyway, there are a few floating around..

[Greg Amy]

Not a lot of time to respond in detail, but...

- Are you fairly certain there actually is an issue, or does it just appear that way?
- The change has to come as a change to the culture, and change that says "we do not tolerate cheating, it's not OK".
- That change to the culture likely has to come from targeted protests and teardowns. It's unlikely, unless you have a friend in Tech, that the region will take the initiative.

We had a perceived culture of cheating in New England a few years ago; guys were playing with the edges in engine builds. A few targeted tear-downs later, I think we have a strong culture here of "we don't tolerate that, don't even try".

- GA

[JeffYoung]

It's always amusing to tow to Daytona and see what Florida has to offer. As a mostly outsider, I'd say:

1. Friendly, really cool bunch of racers. LOTS of IT cars. Daytona is awesome.

2. The fast guys in the classes I race with -- R/S/A/7 -- all seem legit and legal with some exceptions.

3. The cheats on one or two fast cars I saw were all aero related: shaved door handles, no wipers, stuff like that. Annoying stuff.

4. Then there is just some flat out blatant "I obviously didn't read the rules or obviously don't care about them" crap. The orange ITR 911 with the Lexan rear window with holes drilled in it. Last year, the ITS E36 Bmw (that was dog slow) with an unpainted carbon fiber trunk lid. And so on.

There definitely is a Mad Max mentality to what goes on down there, and some "run whtat you brung" stuff, but again, the fast S cars all looked and seemed legit to me. Racing was great, Sunday race with Marc Daa, Bill Quinn and Tim Jenurm was awesome.

Plus, 22 S cars!

[Greg Amy]

...Then there is just some flat out blatant "I obviously didn't read the rules or obviously don't care about them" crap...a Mad Max mentality to what goes on down there, and some "run whtat you brung" stuff...

We handle those one-on-one, and "gently" nudge them over to IT Everything. They either soon get the word they need to meet the regs to play in IT outside ITE, or they start going mental and trying to modify the cars to go even faster...

[Flyinglizard]

The most effective way that I have seen was to announce in the flyer for the race, and in the supps that VC were going to be taken off and cams checked. And to bring the tools/people and parts to do this on SAT afternoon.
The valve covers did not come off ,but some of the cars slowed down.
Maybe put a short article in the CFR paper with your concerns, would be a smart start.
Throwing paper pisses people off. Having mam to man talks with maybe 1 beer( not 4) might be more tolerated . Most of these guys are pretty nice. but as the rules get let go , "everyone is doing it" comes into play.

FWIW I dont see a legal Toy running with a legal Mk 3 VW.
I have worked with both .
Be careful ,The 5-6 ITB cars that race in CFR might not race at all and then what do you have besides one trophy.

RE concerning visible issues like wiper blades. Some guys really dont know the rules. Tell them to put the wiper back on please.
How about the new Dodge 024 that had all of the car gutted etc. I talked to him for a few minutes, asked about the car, as it was really pretty just not legal. I mentioned that I ran Prod and did not know the current rules for IT, so I sicked Chip on the guy and he took his car and stayed home(I was pretty sure thatChip is more politically nicer than I) . The car was more of a Prod car . But pretty sure that we still lost him .
MM

[quadzjr]

I was specifically talking about ITB in general. I know and have talked plenty to the ITS guys and honestly it is what makes me want to build/buy an ITS car. I really enjoy racing the group that shows up to most SARRC races they guys are ran with at the SIC have been a blast to race against (even though one is blatant illegal and did affect the outcome of the race). It is the others that I see having poor exits out of corners, then have to lift to keep from rear ending people at the end of the straights like they are toying with them. It is easy to see when all you do is stare at the back of them lap after lap until they are out of sight.

I know there are cars that are not the same and have no chance that is all in classing and that is not something I can change. I do not expect legal for legal a MK3 VW to compete against my MR2.

What I would like to do is eliminate/reduce the cheating. I like the idea of a putting it in the Supps but not following through would be like crying wolf. I also do not want to eliminate my competition by pushing them out.. I want them legal. Mike and chip know more about what is going around in my area in the slower classes.

Though my sample size has not been that great, but every IT motor that I have torn down that was built by another builder was illegal in some way and one was a big named reputable shop, maybe owner asked them to do so? A few of the cheats would be tech shed legal-ish.. others would require tear down to find. Most of the issues I have found are in the cylinder head prep and valve train. I have found Illegal valve springs, cams, pistons, porting, you name it in the few that I have rebuilt from another builder. Personally, and it may not be good business but I will not build a cheater engine. If you want to cheat, you will have to swap over the illegal parts after delivery.

damn I get side tracked easy.. so anyways. I have suspicion that a few are illegal not all. But in lieu of singling out a few, I would like to change the culture and get all buy in.

[Chip42]

MOST of the problem in FL stems from the Miami area FARA racers who don't appear to even have a rulebook. outside of ITB, most of the cheaters are pretty obvious and usually not quick. the CFR ITB guys are largely legal - there's one VERY questionable car I know of. his crew and the guy who built/tuned his engine have both pretty much said directly that it's illegal. there was that D15B Vtec CRX that we had an issue with but we never saw him again. he did show up with a flared fender, CFRP hooded, slicks-having "ITS" integra the next year but haven't seen that again either. a couple of AE86's certainly sound like they have more than stock cams but again - until they are running in front of mid pack ITC cars I really don't care.

so I don't think the problem is systemic.

the dodge was a bunch of stupid stuff. a lot of the "racecars don't" (wipers)and "I don't think it's safe to keep that" (headlights) type crap. the motor looked OK and on track it certainly wasn't anything to worry about.

when you start a witch hunt you risk scaring off the racers. there's only 1-2 cars we're really worried about. we should just talk to THEM. having a pow-wow at events among all drivers of a certain class or category (ask Rick @ tech to impound all IT or ITB cars after the SAT race or qualifying, and start talking)is a good way to make it clear that what's going on is known, and to get a good vibe from the assembly that they don't care (i.e. it's going to stay that way) or the majority are tired of it too and want to see it stopped. that should send the message without ruffling too many feathers.

if you want to get into CR tests, Fred Clark should be able to supply the whistler and expertise to use it. most cars in ITB especially do not have top center pulgs though, so establishing actual bore and stroke will not be an option without pulling the head, at which point you don't need the whistler anyway. throwing correct by the book numbers at the machine should give you a good start, though. what event to use this at, though? I could see using it at a SARRC, especially a well attended and early-in-season one to set the tone, but not a CFR regional.

[shwah]

In my experience, the best way to do this is to lead by example. We had a case of a car showing up and being VERY fast on the straights, delivering lap record times, yet being poorly driven overall. He would only show up every few years. When I saw him on an entry list, I did some research on the car, what it should be capable of, and what cheats would help it. Then I approached him before the first session for our group, complimented him on the build quality of the car and asked him if it was legal. I explained that our IT group enjoyed close, hard fought, but legal competition, and we expected anyone joining us to do the same. When he said of course its legal, I asked him about the specific parts that were most likely not correct. He stuck to his story. So I simply told him that if he took the track in Q1, I would write paper to check bore, stroke, crank part number, head porting and cam. His story changed to just needing a race to keep his license current, so I approached the officials about helping him move to another class that he was more correctly prepped for. He ended up running in STU for the weekend, and the message was clearly sent.

I did not want to be a jerk, or confrontational, or ruin someone's fun, but I figured that if I didn't do something I had no right to ask others to self police the class as well.

That one incident had a clear effect of solidifying the opinion of all our regulars to emphasize legal prep. It could have gone another way, and created a crap-storm, but letting it go would have reinforced the wrong kind of culture IMO.

[Andy Bettencourt]

We had a perceived culture of cheating in New England a few years ago; guys were playing with the edges in engine builds. A few targeted tear-downs later, I think we have a strong culture here of "we don't tolerate that, don't even try".

- GA

Plus the time you donated with Nick on the voluntary compression check was cool too.

[JS154]

How would I implement or propose a blanket wide easy/cheap inspection. Inspection of the simple things like Cam lift and compression. Going on 6 years of racing in this series I have not once seen this whistler machine and have never seen valve lift checked in IT. I know this happens at the ARRC but a lot of the people down here do not run it.


So how to accomplish this task?

We are a self policing organization. No region has the manpower to handle teardowns at an event. Heck at the Runoffs inspections are only done on the top 3 finishers, with cursory measurements done during q sessions.

Also, paper must be filed before the start of a race, or it is not timely.

Best course of action is to continue to self police, starting with conversations with a competitor who is obviously not legal.

[manny]

I won't even comment on how slow my car is compared to the MR2

[quadzjr]

I won't even comment on how slow my car is compared to the MR2

have you ran your car at tracks that favor your car's layout? I have ran against, and lost every time against Ron S. in his ITB Mustang at RRR. No shortage of money and time went into developing that car.

with the suspension characteristics of the mustang.. I would imagine Sebring would be a scary place to race.

What about Daytona? I know there was a decent race between my father in is MR2 and a mustang running on 3 cylinders there a few years ago. Sadly, the mustang running on 3 cylinders still had the MR2 on the straights, but the MR2 made it back in the corners. Fun/sad race to watch really.

You should come up with us to RRR this year!

[manny]

Is Ron's mustang Marcello's old mustang? Well i did take my motor apart and did find why she was running flat, broken rings will do that

[quadzjr]

Not sure.. Ron S. has been running for a while with his car. it is a blue, red, and orange in color.

Where you the mustang that was running at Daytona a while back? I was spectating that race from the horseshoe.

[matt batson]

have you ran your car at tracks that favor your car's layout? I have ran against, and lost every time against Ron S. in his ITB Mustang at RRR. No shortage of money and time went into developing that car.

with the suspension characteristics of the mustang.. I would imagine Sebring would be a scary place to race.

What about Daytona? I know there was a decent race between my father in is MR2 and a mustang running on 3 cylinders there a few years ago. Sadly, the mustang running on 3 cylinders still had the MR2 on the straights, but the MR2 made it back in the corners. Fun/sad race to watch really.

You should come up with us to RRR this year!

I see you have in car vid of roebling...do you have in car of Daytona or other tracks?
If a 3cyl mustang ITB car is walking you on the straights, then there is something seriously wrong...am I right?

either the mustang is cheating, or your build has a lot to be desired, or the process is WAY off with regards to the MR2.

the roebling vid I watched it seemed like your car was right there power-wise with what I remembered in my old ITB car...which was a top third of the field car.

have you considered sending your engine off to a sunbelt or Kessler or whatever engine builder?
they probably have some tricks that could get you another 5 or 10 hp and put you right at the top of the field....

and are we certain the cars you are comparing yourself too are also legal?

I'm just trying to understand all this, cause I've owned an 87 mr2 for many years, and they are not slow.