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Thread: STL weights?

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  1. #1
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    The STL rules don't specifically mention the IT RX8 like they do the RX7, but based on the "IT clause" would an 8 built to IT spec be legal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clark18 View Post
    The STL rules don't specifically mention the IT RX8 like they do the RX7, but based on the "IT clause" would an 8 built to IT spec be legal?
    STL regs allow 2L-and-under ITS, ITA, ITB, and ITC cars. The RX-8 is an ITR car.

    So...no.

  3. #3
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    Default STL Weight/Specs

    Greg Amy: I thought I finally had a handle on the STL rules/specs. With your last response to CLARK18, I'm CONFUSED. Specifically, If the RX8 is an ITR classed vehicle and would not be allowed to run STL, why was it allowed to run STL at the Runoffs? If this vehicle was allowed to run I can only conclude that it was in full STL trim but its performance was far and away above other STL vehicles. Therefore, there is something I'm missing(additional information). Can you provide any info as to that vehicles' configuration such as which rotary engine(Renesis, 13B, 12A, 20, and the required weight. Further, are there any plans or actions to reclass the RX8 to STU where IMHO it should be?

  4. #4
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    Mister Two, the RX-8 ran as a full-boat STL specs car. Allow me to clarify.

    For the IT part of this discussion, I'm referencing this reg, on the table on page 564 of the November GCR:

    ITS, ITA, ITB, or ITC vehicles with a reciprocating piston engine of 2L or less engine displacement. (1985-) / Must completely conform to ITCS specifications.

    This means that any 2L or smaller IT car - except ITR cars - can race in STL using their ITCS specs*. Since the IT-spec Mazda RX-8 is in ITR, and it's a rotary engine, it is not eligible for inclusion in STL under the IT allowance.

    However, scroll down to the next page in that same table, and you'll see that the Mazda Renesis engine is explicitly allowed into STL at 2970 pounds (almost 300# more than a 2L piston engine). Further note that STL is an engine-centric class, meaning we do not restrict much access to what chassis you can install these allowed engines into, only to add weight for RWD and subtract weight for FWD struts. Therefore, the Mazda RX-8 chassis is allowed - with the RWD adder - and it can run the Renesis engine with a base weight (before RWD adder) of 2970 pounds.

    "So then", you may ask, "why not run ITR-spec RX-8 in STL?" Good question, and it's for a few reasons:

    - The RX-8's ITR weight is too low at 2850; in STL, with the RWD adder, it currently must weigh 3074;
    - Max wheel size in STL is 17x7; ITR allows 8.5" wide wheels;
    - The stock brakes on the Mazda RX-8 exceeds STL's maximum rotor diameter allowance of 290mm;
    - I'm guessing the ITR RX-8 uses tires that exceed STL's 225 section width maximum.

    If someone is willing to change these items to comply with STL regs - as did the Huffmasters - then they can run in STL in the RX-8. But then they would no longer be compliant to ITR.

    Make sense?

    As for the Huffmasters' RX-8, I don't disagree with you that this should be an STU engine. Despite the significant weight disadvantage, what we're dealing with here is yet another Miata-like combination of a decent engine and a fantastic chassis with excellent balance, braking, and handling. The STAC/CRB recognize how well it's doing, and are considering adjustments. Nothing has yet been decided, keep eyes open for the next couple Fastracks.

    - Greg

    * In reality, this reg really only applies to the Integra Type R, Acura RSX, and Honda S2000.
    Last edited by Greg Amy; 11-02-2013 at 09:13 AM.

  5. #5
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    So you are basically saying it is unlikely the STAC would consider allowing the ITR 8 to run in STL? It seems reasonable as the ITR 8 would be like limited-prep STL so it should be able to run lighter; it would have no aero, worse suspension and gearing, etc. The brakes would be larger but stock, not aftermarket like the STL car runs. The tires could be a bit larger too, but not much over the STL 225 so the advantage would be minimal.

  6. #6
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    IMO, the chances are damn near zero that the CRB will ever allow and ITR car to compete in STL using IT prep; the performance potential of ITR is too close to STL*. We already had that argument over the ITR RX-8 (and Type R, and RSX, and S2000) a couple years ago.

    Plus, it would make for significant confusion for scrutineers, just as the inclusion of SMs did.**

    - GA

    * The key philosophical point here to keep in mind is inclusion of IT cars is not to offer a competitive place for them to play, but simply another place in the Majors (nee Nationals) to play. Further note that, on initial glance, any 2L-and-under IT car is already compliant to STL regs, with the exception that STL requires the lateral dash brace whereas ITx does not...so we specifically call out the allowance of IT cars to both avoid that cage issues and encourage participation.

    ** SMs are pulling restrictor plates and claiming to be ITS while running de-powered racks and/or other non-IT-allowed mods. When caught they claimed to be prepped to STL specs, but don't meet all those regs, either. It got so confusing that I had to create a "spotter's guide" for scrutineers to be able to figure out what's what.

  7. #7
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    Default STL Weight

    Greg: Thanks for the info and clarification. FWIW money begets championships AKA speed is money; how fast do you want to go?

  8. #8
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    Yup. Super Touring - both classes - has the significant potential for some serious mega-bucks. And it becomes real "serious business" when it becomes Majors (Nationals) racing. - GA

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clark18 View Post
    So you are basically saying it is unlikely the STAC would consider allowing the ITR 8 to run in STL? It seems reasonable as the ITR 8 would be like limited-prep STL so it should be able to run lighter; it would have no aero, worse suspension and gearing, etc. The brakes would be larger but stock, not aftermarket like the STL car runs. The tires could be a bit larger too, but not much over the STL 225 so the advantage would be minimal.
    I don't see a full built STL RX8 being any faster than an ITR RX8. No gearing advantages, and I am not sure you can get any suspension advantage. Aero ya, brakes I guess a bit better. I think they are doing the right thing staying consistent keeping ALL ITR cars out rather than picking a few.


    I ran mine in STU but it will never be fast enough for that class.

    Stephen

  10. #10
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    STL requires power steering? really? Looped hoses is not legit?

    Iwould be surprised if the ST board would make the same mistake that the IT B did.
    Never mind on the STL rental thing than.
    MM
    Mike Ogren , FWDracingguide.com, 352.4288.983 ,http://www.ogren-engineering.com/

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyinglizard View Post
    STL requires power steering? really? Looped hoses is not legit?
    Looping is allowed in STL (I do it). What the SMs are doing is using their SM-looping-allowed power steering racks and removing their restrictor plates for STL, claiming to be ITS cars. But, Improved Touring does not allow PS-looping so they are not compliant to ITS regs. So then they claim they're actually full-up STL cars, but are either running too low (SM does not have a ride height restriction), don't have the lateral dash bar (not required in SM, and/or are doing something else allowed in SM but not STL (such as all the head modifications). Thus my cheat sheet.

    Can't pick and choose within the regs, gotta meet everything in whatever config you choose to run.

    - GA

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