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Thread: STL weights?

  1. #1
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    Default STL weights?

    Rules state something like IT cars may run at IT specs > does that include IT weight or the heavy STL weight?
    ITB Golf at 2369? or IT weight of 2280 ( not sure if thatis right)
    ITS Miata @ 2515 or IT weight 2375
    Thanks, MM
    I have a few guys looking at renting the cars for STL points.
    I have no interest in the class overall.
    I do like the max tire rules tho. well done.
    MM
    Mike Ogren , FWDracingguide.com, 352.4288.983 ,http://www.ogren-engineering.com/

  2. #2
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    To run as an IT car in STL you must meet 100% of all IT specs, including weight. Any deviations from any IT spec and you must run to STL specs.

    - GA
    Not my circus...not my monkeys...

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    Thanks, that makes the most sense.
    Mike Ogren , FWDracingguide.com, 352.4288.983 ,http://www.ogren-engineering.com/

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    The STL rules don't specifically mention the IT RX8 like they do the RX7, but based on the "IT clause" would an 8 built to IT spec be legal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clark18 View Post
    The STL rules don't specifically mention the IT RX8 like they do the RX7, but based on the "IT clause" would an 8 built to IT spec be legal?
    STL regs allow 2L-and-under ITS, ITA, ITB, and ITC cars. The RX-8 is an ITR car.

    So...no.
    Not my circus...not my monkeys...

  6. #6
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    Default STL Weight/Specs

    Greg Amy: I thought I finally had a handle on the STL rules/specs. With your last response to CLARK18, I'm CONFUSED. Specifically, If the RX8 is an ITR classed vehicle and would not be allowed to run STL, why was it allowed to run STL at the Runoffs? If this vehicle was allowed to run I can only conclude that it was in full STL trim but its performance was far and away above other STL vehicles. Therefore, there is something I'm missing(additional information). Can you provide any info as to that vehicles' configuration such as which rotary engine(Renesis, 13B, 12A, 20, and the required weight. Further, are there any plans or actions to reclass the RX8 to STU where IMHO it should be?

  7. #7
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    Mister Two, the RX-8 ran as a full-boat STL specs car. Allow me to clarify.

    For the IT part of this discussion, I'm referencing this reg, on the table on page 564 of the November GCR:

    ITS, ITA, ITB, or ITC vehicles with a reciprocating piston engine of 2L or less engine displacement. (1985-) / Must completely conform to ITCS specifications.

    This means that any 2L or smaller IT car - except ITR cars - can race in STL using their ITCS specs*. Since the IT-spec Mazda RX-8 is in ITR, and it's a rotary engine, it is not eligible for inclusion in STL under the IT allowance.

    However, scroll down to the next page in that same table, and you'll see that the Mazda Renesis engine is explicitly allowed into STL at 2970 pounds (almost 300# more than a 2L piston engine). Further note that STL is an engine-centric class, meaning we do not restrict much access to what chassis you can install these allowed engines into, only to add weight for RWD and subtract weight for FWD struts. Therefore, the Mazda RX-8 chassis is allowed - with the RWD adder - and it can run the Renesis engine with a base weight (before RWD adder) of 2970 pounds.

    "So then", you may ask, "why not run ITR-spec RX-8 in STL?" Good question, and it's for a few reasons:

    - The RX-8's ITR weight is too low at 2850; in STL, with the RWD adder, it currently must weigh 3074;
    - Max wheel size in STL is 17x7; ITR allows 8.5" wide wheels;
    - The stock brakes on the Mazda RX-8 exceeds STL's maximum rotor diameter allowance of 290mm;
    - I'm guessing the ITR RX-8 uses tires that exceed STL's 225 section width maximum.

    If someone is willing to change these items to comply with STL regs - as did the Huffmasters - then they can run in STL in the RX-8. But then they would no longer be compliant to ITR.

    Make sense?

    As for the Huffmasters' RX-8, I don't disagree with you that this should be an STU engine. Despite the significant weight disadvantage, what we're dealing with here is yet another Miata-like combination of a decent engine and a fantastic chassis with excellent balance, braking, and handling. The STAC/CRB recognize how well it's doing, and are considering adjustments. Nothing has yet been decided, keep eyes open for the next couple Fastracks.

    - Greg

    * In reality, this reg really only applies to the Integra Type R, Acura RSX, and Honda S2000.
    Last edited by Greg Amy; 11-02-2013 at 09:13 AM.
    Not my circus...not my monkeys...

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    So you are basically saying it is unlikely the STAC would consider allowing the ITR 8 to run in STL? It seems reasonable as the ITR 8 would be like limited-prep STL so it should be able to run lighter; it would have no aero, worse suspension and gearing, etc. The brakes would be larger but stock, not aftermarket like the STL car runs. The tires could be a bit larger too, but not much over the STL 225 so the advantage would be minimal.

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    IMO, the chances are damn near zero that the CRB will ever allow and ITR car to compete in STL using IT prep; the performance potential of ITR is too close to STL*. We already had that argument over the ITR RX-8 (and Type R, and RSX, and S2000) a couple years ago.

    Plus, it would make for significant confusion for scrutineers, just as the inclusion of SMs did.**

    - GA

    * The key philosophical point here to keep in mind is inclusion of IT cars is not to offer a competitive place for them to play, but simply another place in the Majors (nee Nationals) to play. Further note that, on initial glance, any 2L-and-under IT car is already compliant to STL regs, with the exception that STL requires the lateral dash brace whereas ITx does not...so we specifically call out the allowance of IT cars to both avoid that cage issues and encourage participation.

    ** SMs are pulling restrictor plates and claiming to be ITS while running de-powered racks and/or other non-IT-allowed mods. When caught they claimed to be prepped to STL specs, but don't meet all those regs, either. It got so confusing that I had to create a "spotter's guide" for scrutineers to be able to figure out what's what.
    Not my circus...not my monkeys...

  10. #10
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    Default STL Weight

    Greg: Thanks for the info and clarification. FWIW money begets championships AKA speed is money; how fast do you want to go?

  11. #11
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    Yup. Super Touring - both classes - has the significant potential for some serious mega-bucks. And it becomes real "serious business" when it becomes Majors (Nationals) racing. - GA
    Not my circus...not my monkeys...

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clark18 View Post
    So you are basically saying it is unlikely the STAC would consider allowing the ITR 8 to run in STL? It seems reasonable as the ITR 8 would be like limited-prep STL so it should be able to run lighter; it would have no aero, worse suspension and gearing, etc. The brakes would be larger but stock, not aftermarket like the STL car runs. The tires could be a bit larger too, but not much over the STL 225 so the advantage would be minimal.
    I don't see a full built STL RX8 being any faster than an ITR RX8. No gearing advantages, and I am not sure you can get any suspension advantage. Aero ya, brakes I guess a bit better. I think they are doing the right thing staying consistent keeping ALL ITR cars out rather than picking a few.


    I ran mine in STU but it will never be fast enough for that class.

    Stephen

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    STL requires power steering? really? Looped hoses is not legit?

    Iwould be surprised if the ST board would make the same mistake that the IT B did.
    Never mind on the STL rental thing than.
    MM
    Mike Ogren , FWDracingguide.com, 352.4288.983 ,http://www.ogren-engineering.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyinglizard View Post
    STL requires power steering? really? Looped hoses is not legit?
    Looping is allowed in STL (I do it). What the SMs are doing is using their SM-looping-allowed power steering racks and removing their restrictor plates for STL, claiming to be ITS cars. But, Improved Touring does not allow PS-looping so they are not compliant to ITS regs. So then they claim they're actually full-up STL cars, but are either running too low (SM does not have a ride height restriction), don't have the lateral dash bar (not required in SM, and/or are doing something else allowed in SM but not STL (such as all the head modifications). Thus my cheat sheet.

    Can't pick and choose within the regs, gotta meet everything in whatever config you choose to run.

    - GA
    Not my circus...not my monkeys...

  15. #15
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    Makes more sense. Good move on the hose thing.
    My car has or will have..
    looped hoses- yes
    no plate - yes
    dash bar- yes
    cam wheels -yes
    header - yes

    So needs to be @ STL weight I assume.
    Mike Ogren , FWDracingguide.com, 352.4288.983 ,http://www.ogren-engineering.com/

  16. #16
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    Yup.
    Not my circus...not my monkeys...

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    Back to the STL RX8, I disagree the car needs to be slowed with adjustments. Huffmaster's is a well-driven/prepped car that has been developed over years; basically they spent the money to be STL fast (what some of you pointed out would happen). Their Runoffs times were not much better than other STL cars, and few if any of those cars are as developed for STL. I don't understand penalizing the RX8 because Huffmaster brought a car maxed to the STL rules, and spent the money to win.

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    I would also wait based on the simple fact that the Runoffs are headed to a track that is so much less HP dependent. STL is a class that will be very track specific in my mind. With cars in the same pocket in terms of HP-to-weight, but at vastly different HP levels, at a track like RA 210-215whp will be an advantage on the big end, even at 3000lbs.

    Laguna will be interesting. Torque and nimbleness I think will be the recipe.
    Last edited by Andy Bettencourt; 11-05-2013 at 12:38 PM.
    Andy Bettencourt
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    [Personal Opinion]

    If it were up to me - and obviously, it's not - the Renesis engine would not be in STL at all. It does not meet the philosophy of this class in any regard, be it design (rotary), displacement (2.6L), or power (230hp). In my opinion, the Mazda Renesis engine is simply not an STL engine.

    And I'm not opposed to the rotary part; I was the one that championed the 12A and 13B into STL, and allowing the ITA/ITS car in at IT specs. But neither of those have a snowball's chance in hell of being competitive, so it was an easy "gimme" to let them come play in STL. The 230hp Renesis? Not so much.

    I was vociferously opposed, on philosophical grounds, to allowing in the Renesis when it was initially proposed, even before we had any idea of its potential in the class, and well before we saw any racing results (let alone a pair of Runoffs wins with two different drivers). I continue to oppose its inclusion in the class; in fact, I submitted a new letter after this year's Runoffs requesting it be removed (not expecting that to actually happen, but to generate discussion). Of course, I've been voted down in committee each time.

    But that's all water under the bridge now.

    [/Personal Opinion, but still not STAC/CRB official position -- see sig]

    Whatever the CRB does will be for the good of the class, not for or against any specific car and/or engine. The Renesis in STL is a done deal, the Club is not willing to exclude it. Thus, it is a target for adjustment toward this goal of This is Natio...err, Majors racing just as every other engine is, as the CRB retains the right and responsibility to ensure reasonably-equitable competition. And we're not just POOMA'ing this stuff; we have data from all the top cars from the last two years, so we know where each of them does well...

    Again, nothing has been decided, except to consider doing something. Watch Fastrack for the results.

    - GA, encouraging everyone to re-read my signature...
    Not my circus...not my monkeys...

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Bettencourt View Post
    Laguna will be interesting. Torque and nimbleness I think will be the recipe.
    (Mickey... nervously thinking and pondering...)
    Demetrius Mossaidis aka 'Mickey' #12 ITA NESCCA
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    STFU and "Then write a letter. www.crbscca.com"
    2013 ITA NARRC Champion and I have not raced since.

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