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Thread: Are 5 lug and suspension arm swaps legal?

  1. #1
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    Default Are 5 lug and suspension arm swaps legal?

    Are 5 lug and suspension arm swaps legal as long as they are from the same manufacturer?

    Opens up better brake options and wheels for civics...

    Also are steering rack swaps within same manufacture legal?
    Last edited by 0100; 10-16-2013 at 03:48 AM.

  2. #2
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    You need to be more specific if you're looking for a reasonable opinion.

    IMO, you can swap parts freely within a model of car.

    - GA
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    I am talking specifically about 92-95 civic with rear drums.

    The 5 lug conversion is done by using type R front knuckle/hubs and rear type R trailing arms and hubs.

    I think the above is a no go now that I think about it, since the type R is not allowed in the class.

    The Si model came with rear disks so I will just swap that rear disk in.

    The steering rack swap is the 94-01 integra (DC) steering rack which bolts right into the 92-95 civic (EG). The EG and DC are the same car. Still not sure I am going to do the steering rack swap as the EG rack is already manual vs the DC being power. Lot of track DC guys actually put the EG rack in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 0100 View Post
    The 5 lug conversion is done by using type R front knuckle/hubs and rear type R trailing arms and hubs.

    I think the above is a no go now that I think about it, since the type R is not allowed in the class.
    The Type R chassis is allowed in STL but it's not a Civic. IMO, putting Integra parts on a Civic is non-compliant to the regs.

    We had a situation appear in Fastrack within the last month or two, where the CRB had a discussion regarding swapping parts between different versions of Miatae (NA vs NB). The CRB published in Fastrack that the NA and NB versions of the Miata are considered separate chassis, thus you cannot swap parts between them.

    That statement has been subsequently retracted so this situation has not been clarified. However, this Miata example should give you a general idea of how the CRB would respond if they were asked for specific clarification.

    In my opinion, and it's just one club member's opinion and is no way an official one, it's safe to swap parts within the same manufacturer chassis codes (EG, DC, EF, etc). Outside of that is up to your personal interpretation -- and risk.

    - GA
    Not my circus...not my monkeys...

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    Greg, wasn't that "clarification" since retracted about swaps between the 99-00 NB and 01-05 NB Miatas which the rest of the world considers to be the same cars with different engines and some minor updates to trim and lights?

    I agree with tGA, though, a part is either stock (or stock equivalent) or not stock, and only stock is allowed unless permitted to be changed (I.e. brakes).

    BUT given the lack of replacement hub availability on so many cars it might be nice to have some sort of allowance for better than stock or at least similar to stock matches, as long as you keep the stock knuckle and bearing OD, who really cares?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chip42 View Post
    Greg, wasn't that "clarification" since retracted about swaps between the 99-00 NB and 01-05 NB Miatas which the rest of the world considers to be the same cars with different engines and some minor updates to trim and lights?
    Yep, I think you're right. Which is why it was that much more confusing...

    ...might be nice to have some sort of allowance for better than stock or at least similar to stock matches, as long as you keep the stock knuckle and bearing OD, who really cares?
    I suggest that idea is within the general philosophy of the class, as long as modifications to the car are not required to make it fit. If you (or anyone else) can come up with some non-intortuable verbiage, submit it for consideration. Make it snappy if you're looking for implementation for 2014...

    - GA
    Not my circus...not my monkeys...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Amy View Post
    Make it snappy if you're looking for implementation for 2014...
    I drive a Toyota, an old Toyota. STL is not in my immediate future. I do have some other ideas for STL options though

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    Ok this leads me to my next question.

    2. Rotors -
    Any 1- or 2-piece ferrous rotors that do not exceed 290mm
    in diameter and 28mm in thickness are permitted.

    3. Calipers - Any 4-piston or fewer calipers may be used.

    So if we can run any 4 piston caliper and ferrous rotors up to 290x28 which is most certainly bigger than what most of the car in this class come stock with. And you can't go with OEM (not same model) knuckles/hubs to get the bigger brakes to fit OE.

    Are we then allowed to run adapter brackets that come with every big brake kit on the market to get the caliper in the proper position.




    I still think the EG and DC2 are the same, you can mix and match parts between them like legos.

    Wait so the integra type R is legal as long as you don't use it's engine...

    This is the coolest class in scca, but damn is it confusing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 0100 View Post
    Are we then allowed to run [brake] adapter brackets...
    Sure, as long as you don't modify any parts on the car to install them. They're part of your alternate brake design.

    This is the coolest class in scca, but damn is it confusing.
    Concur. We're doing what we can, when we can, to clarify it.

    - GA
    Not my circus...not my monkeys...

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    Cool thanks Greg!

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    I think your safest option for meeting GCR STL rules here to build yourself a 94 Civic EX/Si with ABS. It will still be 4 lug, but you will have a larger front knuckle (which BTW is the same as any non-Type R DC models), larger bearings, larger rotors/calipers (upgrade from 9.3" to 10.2") or get the Wilwood upgrade kit (11" or ~12.2") which needs the larger knuckle from the ABS model, larger brake booster and larger master cylinder. As tGA says, the Si/EX models came with disc rears, so that is an easier conversion.
    Last edited by mossaidis; 10-17-2013 at 10:15 AM.
    Demetrius Mossaidis aka 'Mickey' #12 ITA NESCCA
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    STFU and "Then write a letter. www.crbscca.com"
    2013 ITA NARRC Champion and I have not raced since.

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    PS. There are bolt-on calipers from Wilwood now for the Si/EX models with ABS knuckles. Look up Forged DPHA.

    http://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/Bra...back+SI&whl=15
    Last edited by mossaidis; 10-17-2013 at 10:14 AM.
    Demetrius Mossaidis aka 'Mickey' #12 ITA NESCCA
    '92 Honda Civic Si
    STFU and "Then write a letter. www.crbscca.com"
    2013 ITA NARRC Champion and I have not raced since.

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    So if you have a cx could you swap in si/ex knuckles and brake booster and master cylinders since they are both civics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 0100 View Post
    So if you have a cx could you swap in si/ex knuckles and brake booster and master cylinders since they are both civics?
    IMO, if they are the same chassis designation (such as DA, DC, EF, EG, etc) then I suggest you're safe. If anything outside of that then you're on your own. - GA
    Not my circus...not my monkeys...

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    Quote Originally Posted by 0100 View Post
    So if you have a cx could you swap in si/ex knuckles and brake booster and master cylinders since they are both civics?
    That would be VERY SAFE decision, since in fact, you are not building a new model, just making an existing one. Other than the sunroof brackets and VIN, take a CX put the Si/EX rear suspesion, the Si/EX ABS front suspension and brake system, less motor and you have a Si/EX with ABS roller. Boom!

    Now mind you, tGA is stating his opinion about mindlessly swapping parts from a DC to EG chassis. Only a protest or a technical clarification request would put that decision to rest. I do know that an EG Civic is NOT as wide as DC2 Integra even though the suspension are similar.

    PS. Though, I am also known to be a "little" anal sometimes. Plus tGA is on the STAC... cough.
    Last edited by mossaidis; 10-21-2013 at 12:51 PM.
    Demetrius Mossaidis aka 'Mickey' #12 ITA NESCCA
    '92 Honda Civic Si
    STFU and "Then write a letter. www.crbscca.com"
    2013 ITA NARRC Champion and I have not raced since.

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    Thanks guys.

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    Did I miss something on 5 lug pattern hubs? I didn't see any interpretation as to whether 5 lug patterns are legal!! Please clarify?

  18. #18
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    I'll quote you a couple pieces from the above:

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Amy View Post
    You need to be more specific if you're looking for a reasonable opinion.

    IMO, you can swap parts freely within a model of car.
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Amy View Post
    The Type R chassis is allowed in STL but it's not a Civic. IMO, putting Integra parts on a Civic is non-compliant to the regs.
    ...
    In my opinion, and it's just one club member's opinion and is no way an official one, it's safe to swap parts within the same manufacturer chassis codes (EG, DC, EF, etc).
    Not my circus...not my monkeys...

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