Street tires in IT??

[autoxmike]

Car is a LeChump MX3... ~2350#, 120-125whp, parts store shocks, ebay coilovers, 15x7 wheels with Dunlop Star Spec 205/50's.

He was at the last Road ATL SCCA weekend as well... ended up finishing 3rd OA in the ITR/ITS/ITA group during mixed conditions.

Edit:
He's gotten the car down into the 1:48's so, although that's a good pace, it's not pointy at the pointy end of the IT field in dry conditions but is smack dab in the mid-pack racing.

Test day on May got down to 1:47.1 on 225/15 Rivals, on a reasonably hot day, and without optimizing tire pressures (first run ever on the Rivals). Hoping for high 1:45's with a bit more tweaking, better driving, and cooler temps & faster track that usually happens in November

This weekend when running older 1/2 tread Star Specs on a ITX LeChump MX-3 in the ITA/ITS/ITR group it started to rain for the last 4 laps of the 15 lap race. Full tread Star Specs would have been MUCH better, but even the 1/2 tread tires were MUCH better then the Hoosiers than everyone else was on. I was running P7 out of 20 starters when it started to rain and finished P3.

The unfortunate part though is that I counted at least 4 cars that went off and had big damage trying to stay out in the rain. Ask those guys how much running Hoosiers cost them that race? Thinking about it - even if I ran HoHos in a real IT car I'd have a set of new Star Specs mounted up for races like this when it might rain. Not far enough off pace in the dry and if it rains you are safer & faster.

Mike

[Ron Earp]

J
Jeff Young and Mike and Ron Earp have been discussing testing some 200TW tires back to back with R6s on various cars, so they will be able to shed some decent data on your questions regarding the specifics. based on my reading the tires would be about 1-1.5 secs slower at LRP, (ITA/ITS kinda car) but will stay in the sweet spot easily three times as long. (Say 24 cycles vs 8 cycles) THATS where the $$$ savings come in.

1 - 1.5 seconds off the R pace at LRP, where laps are a minute, is going to translate into more of a difference at a place like CMP where lap times are say 1:50s.

I'm probably out for testing. It appears the closest tire I can get for team stang is the 225-45-15. I'd require a rear gear swap and a lot of ride height adjustment to make it anywhere close to comparing what we run now (R6 245-50-15), and even then the 225 has about 0.9 to 1" less footprint (and yes, I know the lore about 225 R6s being big, but we have actual measurements of a loaded tire footprint, not lore).

[Xian]

Having raced Miatas for 13+ years, I believe the Toyo RA1 was the best tire.
All the things being talked about can be had in that tire

Having driven and raced on RA-1's, I'll disagree. RA-1's will chunk at full tread*. Additionally, they get quite a bit faster when shaved due to reduced void area. These two things combined results in a *big* advantage to those will to shave and toss tires and even *requires* folks to shave them for dry use.

*Possibly specific to FWD'ers.

[240zdave]

The unfortunate part though is that I counted at least 4 cars that went off and had big damage trying to stay out in the rain. Ask those guys how much running Hoosiers cost them that race? Thinking about it - even if I ran HoHos in a real IT car I'd have a set of new Star Specs mounted up for races like this when it might rain. Not far enough off pace in the dry and if it rains you are safer & faster.

Mike

I was one of the cars on Hoosiers that went off. Fortunately, no damage, but your idea of having a set of Star Specs mounted for races where it is likely to start raining during the race is a good idea. I also would be curious to know how they compare with Hoosier H2O's in the rain.

[autoxmike]

I was one of the cars on Hoosiers that went off. Fortunately, no damage, but your idea of having a set of Star Specs mounted for races where it is likely to start raining during the race is a good idea. I also would be curious to know how they compare with Hoosier H2O's in the rain.

My guess is that the Hoosier H20s would be better in the rain - but maybe not much. Just a guess.

The real question though is how do the Hoosier wets do in the dry? What if you put them on "just in case" and it doesn't rain? Do they get hot and go off quickly? Do you trash an expensive set of rains in one dry race?
The Dunlops are perfectly happy and fast at full tread depth, and even with a 5 or 10 sprint races they will look & perform as new and still be decent rain tires.

FWIW - The Star Specs that beat up on the HoHos in the rain had 20+ W2W race hours on them when it rained.

[webhound]

Having driven and raced on RA-1's, I'll disagree. RA-1's will chunk at full tread*. Additionally, they get quite a bit faster when shaved due to reduced void area. These two things combined results in a *big* advantage to those will to shave and toss tires and even *requires* folks to shave them for dry use.

*Possibly specific to FWD'ers.

Also, if the RA-1 is same/similar in compound to the NT01, which is what the theory is, they will cycle out way earlier than a street tire.

[seckerich]

I'm curious how you deal with it when Hoosier builds a 200tw tire? Similar compound to the GA continental tire.

[autoxmike]

I was one of the cars on Hoosiers that went off. Fortunately, no damage, but your idea of having a set of Star Specs mounted for races where it is likely to start raining during the race is a good idea. I also would be curious to know how they compare with Hoosier H2O's in the rain.

I can see it now. The HoHo guys are going to need another set of tires. HoHo wets when it will rain for sure, and Dunlop Steets when it might rain.

[240zdave]

The real question though is how do the Hoosier wets do in the dry? What if you put them on "just in case" and it doesn't rain? Do they get hot and go off quickly? Do you trash an expensive set of rains in one dry race?
The Dunlops are perfectly happy and fast at full tread depth, and even with a 5 or 10 sprint races they will look & perform as new and still be decent rain tires.

My understanding is that the H2O's will not do well in the dry. I don't know if they will chunk or not, but after a session in the dry, one will need to buy a new set for the next rain race.

[autoxmike]

I'm curious how you deal with it when Hoosier builds a 200tw tire? Similar compound to the GA continental tire.

If someone like Hoosier does make such a tire that then the 200TW idea has gone over pretty damn well with the racers. A good problem to have IMHO.

The answer is to make sure the "Powers That Be" have the ability to ban (or catagorize as a race tire) any 200TW tire that breaks the mold & negates the cheap tire idea, then has the balls to put a tire like that on the list. This would apply to tires that really aren't 200TW but marked as such, wear out to fast, heat cycle too quickly, or benefit too much from shaving.

[240zdave]

I can see it now. The HoHo guys are going to need another set of tires. HoHo wets when it will rain for sure, and Dunlop Steets when it might rain.

I'm going to need a separate trailer just for tires.

[Xian]

I'm curious how you deal with it when Hoosier builds a 200tw tire? Similar compound to the GA continental tire.

If they last like the rest of the 200TW tires, who cares if there's another competing manufacturer? If they make something that's NOT REALLY a 200TW tire because it heat cycles out or is crazy fast shaved then you do what the Solo/AutoX people do... stuff them on an exclusion list.

My understanding is that the H2O's will not do well in the dry. I don't know if they will chunk or not, but after a session in the dry, one will need to buy a new set for the next rain race.

I'd be pretty surprised if the 200TW options are as fast as the H20. The Hoosier has at least as good of a compound (almost certainly better, IMO) and way more void area. The 200TW options are better than a slick and as good/better than something like a partial tread RA-1 but if they were purpose built rain tires they'd probably chunk at full tread... which they don't.

Edit:
Mike posted additional details while I was typing... but, yeah. What he said.

[webhound]

Good point. No real answer other than if they do make such a tire that then the 200TW idea has gone over pretty damn well with the racers. A good problem to have IMHO

1. Make an exclusion list. Use it. Or use an inclusion list and put at least a handful of the current crop on there.
2. I'd have to dig around a lot for some posts from some guys that know how these ratings work, but iirc the rating can be gamed a little, but they won't label a 40tw tire with 200tw. They also won't risk selling a tire that's sort of aimed at consumer-ish use to an actual consumer. IE, just take your R6 the way it is now, and rebrand it as a 200TW street tire. The liability is too great for them just to compete in the small market of IT racers.
3. So, if they build a legit 200TW tire that can go on a street car and not be in the ditch when it threatens rain, good for the sport. It would suck if it were $220, just like the current rcomp, but even so, it would at least last longer.

[lateapex911]

1. Make an exclusion list. Use it. Or use an inclusion list and put at least a handful of the current crop on there.
2. I'd have to dig around a lot for some posts from some guys that know how these ratings work, but iirc the rating can be gamed a little, but they won't label a 40tw tire with 200tw. They also won't risk selling a tire that's sort of aimed at consumer-ish use to an actual consumer. IE, just take your R6 the way it is now, and rebrand it as a 200TW street tire. The liability is too great for them just to compete in the small market of IT racers.
3. So, if they build a legit 200TW tire that can go on a street car and not be in the ditch when it threatens rain, good for the sport. It would suck if it were $220, just like the current rcomp, but even so, it would at least last longer.

IF it were legit, Then people wouldn't buy it, because it was equivalent to other cheaper choices. Now if it was more competitive, wink wink, yea, a benevolent dictator has to strike quick.

My understanding is that there is some room to wiggle the TW rating, but not much. Hoosier would be a concern, because their tires don't last long, so a long lasting time to them means something different to a full lineup company like Dunlop.

Its a concern, but, this isn't the crazy Showroom Stock days of the mid to late 80s, when major tire companies were using SCCA for advertising and marketing. Remember, this is IT, the redheaded stepchild of SCCA.

[JeffYoung]

Yes, you can trash a set of HoHo H20s in the dry. Badly.

Which is why when it rains, it's kidn of a dance in IT. R6s are good on a dry or drying track, or in a light mist. Wets need sanding water. No real intermediate choice between the two so you are liteally making your tire choice just before you roll to the grid.

[Xian]

That's where the street stuff shines in my experience... I drove around a ton of slip-sliding IT cars at the ARRC Enduro last year. It started misting and then raining while everyone was on grid. We were on old Star Specs (14 hours at CMP+ the ARRC test day, sprint, and Pro-IT). I think I picked up like 6 or so spots in my stint? And that was after losing 3-4 due to a tentative start (it wasn't my car, it was RA, and raining).

[autoxmike]

Yes, you can trash a set of HoHo H20s in the dry. Badly.

Which is why when it rains, it's kidn of a dance in IT. R6s are good on a dry or drying track, or in a light mist. Wets need sanding water. No real intermediate choice between the two so you are liteally making your tire choice just before you roll to the grid.

Conditions like those in Sunday's race (dry track at the start - rain on the way) are perfect for Dunlops. Lets say 2 seconds (maybe less if on wider wheels) off pace but when/if the rain starts WAY faster then race rubber. And if it doesn't rain you haven't trashed a set of expensive rains.

Raining at the start = Hoosier wets.

[autoxmike]

That's where the street stuff shines in my experience... I drove around a ton of slip-sliding IT cars at the ARRC Enduro last year. It started misting and then raining while everyone was on grid. We were on old Star Specs (14 hours at CMP+ the ARRC test day, sprint, and Pro-IT). I think I picked up like 6 or so spots in my stint? And that was after losing 3-4 due to a tentative start (it wasn't my car, it was RA, and raining).

Yup. And if we would have been on reasonably new instead of almost worn out Star Specs you would have picked up way more than that. Great risk/reward tire in conditions where it might rain, or raining but the track may dry during the race

[autoxmike]

It would be ironic if the result of this discussion is that IT guys that run Hoosiers need to have another set of tires in the trailer - and they are the same 200TW tires that do many are resisting.

[lateapex911]

It would be ironic if the result of this discussion is that IT guys that run Hoosiers need to have another set of tires in the trailer - and they are the same 200TW tires that do many are resisting.

I always had 4 sets: Low heat cycle R6s, A set of low heat cycle A6s for qualies and cold damp tracks that weren't really wet, a set of R6s that were high heat cycled for practice etc, and a set of Hoosier Dirt Stockers, teh all time king of IT rain tires.

BUT, if I was REALLY prepared, I'd have had a set of Inters. Ideally they would be A compounds with medium groves, but, nobody makes those, so the next best thing was a good street tire.

But MOST of the time, it's either getting wetter, or getting dryer, and you need to plan accordingly. Rare is the race where you just don't know. (Although I guessed wrong badly once, I've been right far more often and the results followed)

BUT, eliminate the whole R and A thing, and at BEST you have three sets: Full tread, (wets), some tread, (inters) and barely treads (drys).
You could 'get by" with two sets easy