Street tires in IT??

[Xian]

FL still seems to have decent turn-outs in ITA/ITB... but the rest of the SE is pretty skinny most of the time.

[Chip42]

FL still seems to have decent turn-outs in ITA/ITB... but the rest of the SE is pretty skinny most of the time.

yup, pretty common to see 10-15 ITB cars and at least as many ITA at any CFR regional or SARRC race. most of them are legal, too!

[Knestis]

It was alluded to above but I really like the idea of the 'race within a race.' Get each person in your region interested in the idea to pitch in $5/race and award a nice "Street Tire Trophy" to the highest placing car on 200s in each IT class each weekend. Make it more complex as you desire. I understand that Dunlop was very interested in our Devil 12 hour Direzza test with Blethens, so who knows?

K

[raffaelli]

My budget is small, I am in for reducing my biggest expense.....tires.....currently dumping SM6 at 6 cycles.

I would participate in the double dip as a test.

[Blair Deff]

Yes, ITA/B are slim here in NCR, that is very disappointing. Now as far as costing no more to run ITS, with speed comes costs like fuel, brakes and tires. I said ITA/B platforms because most of the cars we like and dream about are in those classes. It would be very fun to play in ITS, probably one of the most heated classes in NCR right now but I think that there are a lot of ITA/B cars sitting in back yards because those guys don't want to mess with the $1000 dollar re-buy in to race. monkeying around with this subject would be just one more effort to get more cars out of retirement and new cars built, which we need sorely.

Now about this Street Tire Challenge, that is an idea to hold onto. Out of the patches discussed so far in this thread that is the easiest to put into action. As a board member on the NCR board of directors I can see that being relatively easy to back up. Mainly because, in theory, you can run one car virtually unchanged in two series on the same weekend, there will be a lot of guys willing to find some junkyard wheels and buy a used set of RS3's or Star Specs or what have you so they can run that series and get it off the ground. Unless I am missing a detail there would be no need for class manipulation, no rules changes nothing. Just another sticker on the car or something to identify it as an STC car and go. Get a region or two on board, get a few tracks on board and if it works out it will expand nearly on its own.

[RSTPerformance]

The conversation is interesting but honestly we just do not know enough about how the tires would perform. What would be great is if somewhere a group of IT competitors would do a gentlemen’s agreement and run a few races on them so we could have some real world comparative data.
I suppose one could even set up a double dip class in a different run group to try it out.

On it...

This weekend at Watkins Glen my brother will be racing in the ITR sprint races (Group 5) on some used Hoosiers. I am not sure the exact # heat cycles on them but they are relatively new, plenty left in them (typical mid to front IT driver tire). I will be running in the ProIT Series on the used Dunlop Direzza ZII from the "12 hour Devil in the Dark". The used set has several heat cycles and at least 6hrs on them from testing at NHMS and NJMP... They even have a nice burnout

Both my brother and I turned nearly identical lap times on the Dunlops at both NHMS and NJMP so I think it would be fair to say we would likely turn the same lap times at Watkins Glen. I think all but maybe 1 of the ITR cars are running both the sprint races and the ProIT. This should be a VERY interesting test not only to compare lap times but also class finishing position... Stay tuned!

Raymond "The Dunlop Guy" Blethen

PS: so far I cannot say enough about these tires... Excellent choice no matter what if you want to come out and play. Easy and predictable tire to race on, they will probably help keep you out of trouble those first couple of years also! The use of "street tires" should not prevent a beginner from coming out. At most you will only be a few seconds back, that puts you right in the mix with the best of the rest in a normal IT field... And that is some of the best racing you will find across the country in any series!

[ner88]

I think this is an interesting topic and am interested as to where it goes.....
But, in the end those that can will figure a way to make them go faster and not care about the cost....Shave them to 1/32 and soak them in Formual V (tire softner)??...who care how many heat cycles????

[Blair Deff]

Yes, there will always be R and D and always be someone with more resources. There also will always be cheaters, there will always be someone applying Demon juice to the inside of the tires for more grip. That will happen whether we set a plan like this into motion or not, we can't let that be a reason to stop trying new things. It may not be here yet but I think this is a solid idea worth developing. Step one I think is to spread the word, see what other people think, probe out for possible participation, then maybe we take it to our respective board of directors for further expansion. Progress is the key!

[lateapex911]

I think this is an interesting topic and am interested as to where it goes.....
But, in the end those that can will figure a way to make them go faster and not care about the cost....Shave them to 1/32 and soak them in Formual V (tire softner)??...who care how many heat cycles????

I absolutely agree that you can not control costs via rules. But, I think you can control peoples desire to spend through rules. If the extra expense only results in minimal gains, the lack of return on investment will act as a deterrent.

Sure, let folks go crazy and spend a fortune if they want, but in club racing, and especially IT, the 'noise' is greater than the gains. My pat example in IT is the cage rules which effectively control damper spending. leaving the front clip isolated from the cage (and not allowing seam welding, etc) means the chassis is essentially an undamped spring. mega dollar dampers won't bring the returns on the investment, because the chassis isn't well controlled.

I would expect shaving to be standard fare, but the differences in lap times between 1/32 and 3/132 to be minimal. Reports indicate that shaving doesn't gain much, but I'm skeptical.

And even WITH the cost of shaving, the lesser up front cost, the longer life from much greater cycle #s, and the decreased expenses from the constant mount and balances should net significant savings.

People say, "yea, but you can do that now, just use take off Hoosiers". True, but maintaining a set of take offs or two as well as rains as well as "a fast set" so you can actually compete, (we ARE here to race) means you end up with 3 or 4 sets of active wheel/tires, and with it the constant tracking and changing...($$). Go with street tires and you can get away with 2 sets: wet and dry. And they stay on the rims far longer, saving labor $$ and hassle.
Also, part of the idea here is to attract new blood that has no interest in R compounds, but to do that, a bone needs to be thrown. A 200TW line in the sand does that. The trick is what is the bone???

[gran racing]

Chris, do you properly heat cycle your Hoosiers? I'd imagine you could get a couple more cycles. In my FWD car, I'd take the 6 or 8 cycle tires and put them on there rear for several more cycles.

But, I think you can control peoples desire to spend through rules.

I've always liked this notion and efforts towards it. Tires do suck.

[Xian]

yup, pretty common to see 1015 ITB cars and at least as many ITA at any CFR regional or SARRC race. most of them are legal, too!

Wow... talk about an exception to the track density rules.

It was alluded to above but I really like the idea of the 'race within a race.' Get each person in your region interested in the idea to pitch in $5/race and award a nice "Street Tire Trophy" to the highest placing car on 200s in each IT class each weekend. Make it more complex as you desire. I understand that Dunlop was very interested in our Devil 12 hour Direzza test with Blethens, so who knows?

K

I think I mentioned it on the brownboard but not here. The Dunlop appears to do better "pinched" on a narrow wheel than other 200TW options. I mention this as the common thing for the AutoX Solo guys is to run a wheel with roughly the same width as the tire tread. i.e. I've got 205/50 Rival's mounted on 15x8's... 225/45's would also fit on a 15x8 but won't feel/work as well on something like a 15x7. Additionally, in the 15" diameter, the Dunlop is only available in a 205/50 which takes another variable out of the equation (225vs205) and they work better in the rain than the Rival or RS3.

[JLawton]

Jake, thanks again for starting an “official” thread on this topic. I think the discussion has been great!!

I certainly would be willing to take the lead on this in NER and create an ITAS (ITA Street tire). I think besides the SM double dippers it’s a fairly steady group of drivers so I’m sure we can come up with a gentlemen’s agreement. Maybe before each event an e-mail could go out to the other “non-regular” drivers explaining what we are trying to do and what the rules are. I think if you could get the top drivers on board, the rest of the group would join.

Also, wouldn't it dimminish the affects of expensive shocks? (he says in hopes of hanging on to his non adjustable Bilstein's........... )

The only issue that might happen is with the SM double dippers. They’re not going to give a shit about this and it may create corner speed differentials that could cause problems? Or maybe we’d get more converts??

What are the costs of the 200 tires and how many cycles do you get out of them?

[webhound]

Also, wouldn't it dimminish the affects of expensive shocks? (he says in hopes of hanging on to his non adjustable Bilstein's........... )

The only issue that might happen is with the SM double dippers. They’re not going to give a shit about this and it may create corner speed differentials that could cause problems? Or maybe we’d get more converts??

What are the costs of the 200 tires and how many cycles do you get out of them?

Dunlop ZII is list on Tire Rack for $114 for the 205/50-15. Cycles, guys have reported 30+, basically they wear out before they cycle out. I've found the opposite to be true of the NT01 that was mentioned here before, although that was in mixed track, road, and autox use.

If you guys were at the MoHud PDX this past Friday, you were probably out with me in my light prep ITA Civic. It was on older (age and generation) street tires, the Ecta XS, which iirc isn't 200TW but isn't as fast as the new gen 200TW either. Yes, I was slower than the couple ITA Miatas I saw out there, and slower than Mickey's Civic. But, considering it's prep level, imo I wasn't horribly in the way, either.

This car, in ITC trim and on rcomps, was EASIER to drive. Just mat it and go at LRP. The small amount less grip with the street tires IMO makes it a little more challenging, at least at LRP.

I think a transition, or at least having a legitimate choice of running streets either in a session with other cars on streets, or given a small break to equalize performance a little, would be a very good thing. I'm sure I'm not alone in the lower income club. Further, I seriously hate spending all that money on consumables. At least with R&P, shocks, header, ECU, it's a tangible and I can sell it off if I want to swap out. Event entry, hotel stays and the like, they are very expensive as well, but at least you are trading on the experience. RComps, there really is no tangible ROA, other than a couple tenths of a G.

[StephenB]

FYI,

My brother and I WILL be doing this most likely for 2014 no matter what. We want to race but we want 1 set of tires for the ENTIRE SEASON

We have a good relationship with Dunlop and we will try and do our best to answer ANY questions that anyone might have. As most of you know we ran the RX8 at 2950lbs for 12hrs plus the practice session without any issues at all.

The biggest thing that I thought when we decided to do this at the 12hr was that these things would be screeching like crazy and the car would be plowing badly. TOTALLY NOT THE CASE! they honestly felt just like a worn hoosier. Predictable, comfortable to push to the edge, no tire noise, basically just a bit slower. For anyone that says "this is racing, we need R-comps" just give it a try. I would bet that you will have just as much fun driving and if everyone was doing it and you could still win you wouldn't even care one bit!

Jake,
NASA has already set the guildlines on the weight thing. they have figured this out a long time ago, made the tweeks, and continue to use a system they all like. (Check out the PT rules and think of the points as a weight penalty instead) Personally I agree that way to many cars are close to base weight without spending tons on more fabrication to remove more weight. I think a regional class within a class would be more effective, simmilar to how ssm or ssm2 or sm2 or sm? started.

I do wonder how Dan and the IT7 guys feel about this since they are running 150ish TW tires, ya this is kinda a copy of them but taking it another step further...

Great discussion, We will be running 200TW street tires in the PRO-IT this weekend at Watkins Glen. Maybe we are the first ones in this century to do this, but hopefully we are not the last ones!

Stephen

[Xian]

Jake, thanks again for starting an “official” thread on this topic. I think the discussion has been great!!

I certainly would be willing to take the lead on this in NER and create an ITAS (ITA Street tire). I think besides the SM double dippers it’s a fairly steady group of drivers so I’m sure we can come up with a gentlemen’s agreement. Maybe before each event an e-mail could go out to the other “non-regular” drivers explaining what we are trying to do and what the rules are. I think if you could get the top drivers on board, the rest of the group would join.

Also, wouldn't it dimminish the affects of expensive shocks? (he says in hopes of hanging on to his non adjustable Bilstein's........... )

The only issue that might happen is with the SM double dippers. They’re not going to give a shit about this and it may create corner speed differentials that could cause problems? Or maybe we’d get more converts??

What are the costs of the 200 tires and how many cycles do you get out of them?

Here's a video from Mike (he posted earlier) during his first ever IT Sprint Race. Car is a LeChump MX3... ~2350#, 120-125whp, parts store shocks, ebay coilovers, 15x7 wheels with Dunlop Star Spec 205/50's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nySmPja5pzE

I don't see any speed differentials that that are beyond what is already present on track...

PS
He was at the last Road ATL SCCA weekend as well... ended up finishing 3rd OA in the ITR/ITS/ITA group during mixed conditions.

Edit:
He's gotten the car down into the 1:48's so, although that's a good pace, it's not pointy at the pointy end of the IT field in dry conditions but is smack dab in the mid-pack racing.

[1stgen]

I guess I'm a little confused here, if you want to run street tires and be competitive.....well that's just not gonna happen. Plus I don't see the cost of tires being the game changer here. I run the hankooks in 225/45/15, I have never had a problem getting them. Tire rack has them and Phil's tire service has them...ALL the time. There 700 a set and almost as competitive as the Hoosier and go twice the amount of heat cycles before falling off.
Racing is not cheap, doesn't matter how you do it, but to be honest I have instructed many people who do lemons and chump car, Their eager and aggressive, but want to compete with crappy equipment and the cheapest solution possible. I'm sorry but that doesn't seem to be the creed of the rulebook....
It's kind of like the lowest common denominator thing...do we keep changing something that national already uses against IT to keep it from going national .....like a uniformity across the nation.
Why not start a regional street tire class?

P.S..... poster is an oppinionated dumbass, so feel free to say what you want. It's just my opinion based on the majority of people I've met and their input on it....
Except the tire thing...I do run the hankooks and have for many years. There a little greasy when hot and ice cold, but when at temp a good long lasting slick.
P.S.S. I use the same set of hankooks all year and just rotate them every session.

[webhound]

want to compete with crappy equipment and the cheapest solution possible.....

HEYYY, that rotor button was new....

[Blair Deff]

I do wonder how Dan and the IT7 guys feel about this since they are running 150ish TW tires, ya this is kinda a copy of them but taking it another step further...

This IT7 guy as well as my camp has been wondering why this discussion didn't happen a long time ago! No one likes to drop a grand on tires every other weekend.

And like I said, there are a lot of guys out there who want to play with a newer car but that would require Hoosiers, which cost too much.

I also maintain that starting a class has a lot of red tape and things to go through that make it a defeating process, I think a Street Tire Challenge would be far easier to get off the ground, pitch it as a series and run it inside a SARRC or something like that. Class creation is not easy and takes a considerable amount of time.

[ner88]

Having raced Miatas for 13+ years, I believe the Toyo RA1 was the best tire.
All the things being talked about can be had in that tire

[lateapex911]

Jake, thanks again for starting an “official” thread on this topic. I think the discussion has been great!!

I certainly would be willing to take the lead on this in NER and create an ITAS (ITA Street tire). I think besides the SM double dippers it’s a fairly steady group of drivers so I’m sure we can come up with a gentlemen’s agreement. Maybe before each event an e-mail could go out to the other “non-regular” drivers explaining what we are trying to do and what the rules are. I think if you could get the top drivers on board, the rest of the group would join.

Also, wouldn't it dimminish the affects of expensive shocks? (he says in hopes of hanging on to his non adjustable Bilstein's........... )

The only issue that might happen is with the SM double dippers. They’re not going to give a shit about this and it may create corner speed differentials that could cause problems? Or maybe we’d get more converts??

What are the costs of the 200 tires and how many cycles do you get out of them?

Jeff, back in the day, when the RX-7s were in ITA in the NE, they had the "Mazda Cup" where there was a trophy that went to the highest placed RX-7. It was 'perpetual' in that if you won, you kept it until the next event.

I wouldn't lose sleep over the double dippers too much, if you don't mind them 'winning' or running ahead of you. The variance in speed between the classes is already there with Prod cars and IT cars and GTL cars etc.

Isn't there a regional SM class that runs a spec tire and has reeled in rules to some degree? I know Rob Myles (Wreckerboy) has a SM car that he runs with the MARRS guys and the engine was dynoed and sealed, and they've got a special regional class for Sms that has the 'crazy' aspect of the SM rules turned down a bit.

So, there's certainly precedent to forge ahead in new directions if there are enough racers who can agree to take the plunge.

Jeff Young and Mike and Ron Earp have been discussing testing some 200TW tires back to back with R6s on various cars, so they will be able to shed some decent data on your questions regarding the specifics. based on my reading the tires would be about 1-1.5 secs slower at LRP, (ITA/ITS kinda car) but will stay in the sweet spot easily three times as long. (Say 24 cycles vs 8 cycles) THATS where the $$$ savings come in.

(Assuming that the tires cost 75% or so of a set of R6s, the net net means the budget winds up being a fourth of what a racer would normally spend. Assuming you buy in sets, and you pay $700 per set for Streets, and $1000/set for R6s, at 48 cycles, you've spent $1400 on streets, and $6000 on R6s )

Now, that example discounts how most of us have a set of high heat cycled R6s that we use for practice, engine testing brake bedding etc, so that $6000 is probably lower, depending on your program.

Regardless, Streets would simplify things tremendously, eliminating the need for four sets of wheel/tires at each event and the continual swapping and managing of them.