Street tires in IT??

[lateapex911]

Lately, there's been some chatter about how good the newer street tires are and how they make very good race tires. Chump, lemons, etc guys use and abuse them for hours. Other than the 'divide by 4" thing, the Chump and lemons guys claim that the racing is cheap largely due to the tires lasting much longer than the typical Hoosier R Comps.

Closer to home, our own IT.com regulars, the Blethens (Steve and Raymond) have been running their ITR RX-8 in enduros with some 200TW tires. (TW=Tread wear rating)

In the NE area, Dan Shepard (Dano77 here?) has organized an IT7 class that runs Miata wheels and Nitttos that they buy from Walmart. he's rather pleased with their cost savings.

Over on the brownboard, there is a active thread where a guy who runs Chump wants to come and play in IT. But he's very worried about the costs, and thinks street tires are the answer. But........he'll be schooled and he knows it. (Not just because he's a new racer, or his car isn't max prepped, but because he knows he's giving up significant time per lap due to the tires.)

He's competitive so he's reluctant to go into a gun fight armed with a knife.

He's looking for ideas on how to get IT off the purple crack.

So, as you can imagine he's gotten some responses from the SCCA guys, along the likes of "You want to run street tires? You can. Stop whining", while others have been open to ideas and discussing concepts.

My blue sky idea was to start regionally, and have a gentlemans agreement where each IT class allowed a certain % weight break if you ran on 200TW or harder tires. That % would be different for each IT class, as the affect on performance will be largely nil on ITC cars where it could be significant on heavy high power ITR cars.

There are issues of course: Not all cars have weight to lose: some are as low as you can go. Some cars won't be able to get the tires in the right sizes. Final drive, and chassis setup changes would need to be made in other cases.

So it would be an optional thing. And the % weight break would be carefully researched and designed to NOT make the street tired car a winner. it wouldn't be fair to existing stakeholders to change the rules, and have the rule be such that all can't take advantage of it. So the % would be conservative.
Again, the idea would be to attract guys who look at racing as fun, and want at least a longshot as a trophy, but can't afford the crazy tire costs.

Costs: Depends on tire sizes, but, figure many guys spend $1000 a set for hoosiers with mounting balancing etc.

That number drops to 600 with these cheaper street tires. Lets say all up it's $700.

Not that much savings. But the real savings come in when you factor in how the tires cycle out. IF you're a guy with a RWD ITS car say, and you aim for trophies in a competitive area, you'll likely retire your Hoosiers after 8 sessions.
Reports are that these newer streets last 20 sessions or more before slowing down.

So, at 16 sessions you've got $2000 in Hoosiers, or you could have $700 in streets. at 25 sessions it's $3000 in Rs and $1400 in streets, 33 sessions its $4000 in Rs and $1400 in streets, and so on.

Bigger picture, if this were to take off regionally, the ITAC would probably take a look at it, based on requests. It wouldn't be easy or simple, but I'm sure they could figure something out.

So, what say you IT guys??

[JLawton]

I'm one of those guys who's one a tight budget so I'm all for it Jake............ I just don't think it would stick. Good idea! Good start!!

Tell the guy on "the other board" to try Hankooks. I found them to have the same potential as Hoosiers for a fast lap plus I think they lasted a little longer. I had other issues with them but if you want to go just as fast at a significant savings.............

[dickita15]

The conversation is interesting but honestly we just do not know enough about how the tires would perform. What would be great is if somewhere a group of IT competitors would do a gentlemen’s agreement and run a few races on them so we could have some real world comparative data.
I suppose one could even set up a double dip class in a different run group to try it out.

[gran racing]

Hey Jeff, your Hankooks are "on the boat and should arrive within the next few months." That's how their supply works.

Street tires are interesting. I don't know in the end how one truly controls things. I do not know the history, but didn't categories try something along these lines by making a DOT requirement which turned into two groves around the tire?

SM did the Toyo spec tire, but then people were shaving them to 2/32nds.

If there were a big enough tire market which Hoosier and other companies believe there are, what prevents them from getting motivated to making "the street tire" which exceeds others being used in Chump? Even if it requires a wear rating of XX, that can be gamed and improved upon. I don't think Chump is big enough to warrent a company making a special tire but if you add in more SCCA and potentially NASA classes, maybe.

Or do you believe what I menioned above wouldn't happen? Don't know, just wondering.

[Greg Amy]

...What would be great is if somewhere a group of IT competitors would do a gentlemen’s agreement and run a few races on them so we could have some real world comparative data...I suppose one could even set up a double dip class in a different run group to try it out.

Winner.

...didn't categories try something along these lines by making a DOT requirement which turned into two groves around the tire?

SM did the Toyo spec tire, but then people were shaving them to 2/32nds.

Dude, SM'ers are shaving Hoosiers....

Showroom Stock started out on the DOT bandwagon "to save costs" (the dominant club-racing tire at the time was bias-ply slicks.) Competitors realized they were faster if they "trued" them. SCCA put in a reg that required "discernible tread" to keep from having them shaved into a slick. Goodyear realized there was no reason to mold a full tire then shave them so they offered the GS-CS at the 1991 Runoffs as basically a slick with a couple of grooves masquerading as "discernible tread" (a surprise even to the competitors). SCCA and competing tire companies threw a conniption fit and tried to get that tire tossed out (which had us Goodyear drivers wondering what we were gonna race on) but relented when GY pointed out they were 1) DOT approved and 2) had a discernible tread.

Soon after, Hoosier entered the market and dominated and many other tire companies decided to pretty much pull out of the DOT tire wars.

And the rest, as they say...

This is not a bad idea, but it's not a magic-fix-all bullet. It would work for a short time but it would not take long before folks leverage the letter of the regs to overcome the philosophy. It's what we do.

- GA

[joeg]

Can't really turn back the clock to the good old days of those BFG tires.

Remember those?

IT is far too wide ranging to have spec tires. Moreover, as was pointed out, you need many different sizes to accomodate IT.

I see many people happy with the Hankooks, but crying over availability.

[Xian]

What's a little interesting here is how much this discussion mirrors the same one that SCCA Solo recently went through with their "Stock" class. Stock had the same tire escalation which ultimately resulted in all the "fast guys" running Hoosier A6's. For years there have been complaints about how many RUNS the tires are good for combined with their cost... but you needed them if you wanted to win. Finally, the organizing group for Solo (SEB?) changed the rules. Bang. You'll need a 200TW tire for Stock (now "street") Class starting in 2014, IIRC. This also meant that they had to upend the apple cart and move cars to different classes based on the estimated performance potential they'll have on "street" tires vs. R-comps. The gnashing of teeth that this has caused on the Solo community is simply staggering... seriously. You want to talk about some pissed off people, wow!

The question being raised relative to IT and street tires is the same sort of thing. what's best for the category long term? Stability with the existing tire rules? A +1 sub-class? A complete revision?

IMO, the ITAC isn't ready to make the move to require 200TW tires, the majority of entrants aren't ready to make the move, and nobody is ready to add another class to IT (officially). That leaves you with a Gentleman's Agreement OR allowing an additional Regional Class that specs or otherwise takes into consideration 200TW tires. Personally, I'd take a long hard look at the PTx rules in NASA and either crib them or explicitly allow PTx prepped cars to run SCCA events.

<---- no dog in the fight but quite a bit of experience on old-school "performance" street tires, R-comps, and the new crop of "performance" street tires.

PS
I'd also be willing to wager that, after a session or two, most IT drivers would be within sniffing distance of their times on R's. No, the street tires aren't "that good"... but they're easier to drive. I suspect most recreational IT drivers are leaving a ton of time on the table with their current tire choice and don't realize it.

[Dano77]

OK Jake called me out on this, heres how we did it with the Nitto NT-01

I got the 77 back form the gentleman that bought it. Yeah lets call it that. I was preping the car for 2009 and wasent happy with the cost of the Purple Crack in a 13 inch tire.

Somehow a thread was started here regarding the costs of tires, sound familiar, Mr Andy Bettencourt posted that we need to "make Friends" with a Miata guy and get thier take offs. So I made the call.

We experimented with going with a Miata bolt pattern and a spacer/adapter to get to that bolt pattern. While trying this i saw an add for the Nitto in GRM and made the first phone call.

Nitto was very receptive to the idea of getting onto a spec series in a market they werent in. The deal was struck and 50 NT-01's appeared at the 7's Racing Skunk Works SOUTH location.

Blah Blah Blah

Found out that Konig buids a wheel in our bolt pattern, make the call. We all have Konigs now with Nitto's

As for the tire,the costs, and the rest of the story

[Xian]

And for those who are reading along but haven't driven on the Star Spec/Z2/Rival/etc... they're pretty equivalent to an RA-1 but won't chunk at full tread. Nobody has been able to get these tires to cycle out before they wear out. Shaving yields minimal improvements as there's not a ton of void area in the first place (unlike the Toyo RA-1: see also, chunking at full tread). A FWD car with ~125whp @ 2300-2400 race weight is getting 24+ hours on track out of a set of 205/50 15 or 225/45 15 tires.

Think of them as a longer lasting and almost as good NT-01 for even less money.

Peak G-loads are in the ~1.3-1.4 range with sustained G's in the 1.1-1.2 range... a couple tenths below a Hoosier and just a touch below the RA-1/NT-01/R888.

[Dano77]

The Tires, They are a R compound 100 TW. Basically a Toyo RA-1 with a different tread pattern. The tread pattern is larger blocks so they dont NEED to be shaved, although we experimented with it. They are heavier by like a pound due to the larger tread blocks.

Do they work? HELL YEAH They work, we have been able to get as many as 40 heat cycles out of a set. the last time I set a lap record the tires were on cycle number 30ish. We arent that good at tracking it so I just added up the days we ran those tires. They are still mounted and have been used by others in the group.

When we started this the 205-50-15 was 125.00 225-45-15 was 127.00 We went 205 due to rolling resistance and thats what Nitto was willing to supply at first. we ran those first tires for 2 seasons.

The costs went up from the Tire Guys for 2013 so the question came up again regarding the costs. Dick made a very good point of the fact that we know what we have and how long it lasts. another 30 bucks each wont break the bank due to life cycle. Some where along the line of internet shopping, Mike B found that we can buy them at Walmart, yes that Walmart. And they ship them to us for free. If you go to the super center with a tire guy, they will mount and balance with the purchase. You have to ask and then you need to explain to the dude what we race. Then you get to hear about HIS car and all the mods and races he does. Still asking myself if its worth the mount and balance. Nothing is free.

Lap times., we havent made a back to back with the Nitto vs the Hoosier/GY/Hankook. No real need to we all run the same tire. we are all running pretty consistent to what we used to run with a Hoosier. Again, we arent that specific with that stuff. I will tell you that the track record at NHMS was a 1:19:xxx with a Hoosier and its now a 1:17:9 with a Nitto. Although that was the 77v1.0, now we are into the 77v3.0 Jury is still out.

Come by and check out the NERRC IT7 Dinosaur Super Series anytime.

[quadzjr]

Just like I said on the other forum. I like the idea of a better longer lasting tire.. I dislike the idea of having a weight break for the tires. For the reasons mentioned above.. the biggest is that some cars cannot already reach their minimum weight. Some cars are alot of cars. This will then not affect IT as a whole.. just those that want to try something else. So in affect you allow a group of people run lighter and cheaper tires and still be competitive. Yet the odds out get stuck with haivng to buy the $$$ tires to keep up.

Additionally, everyone mentions but quickly seems to disreguard it. ITB and ITC are left out in teh dry.. these tires do not come in their sizes. I understand that ITC is a field that not much attention is paid and I assume as new cars get faster ITB will be the same. However, currently ITB is a strong field. these tires that you speak of do not come in sizes that ITC and ITB run on. BFG rival? nope.. Bridgestone RE-11? nope.. Dunlop ZII? only a 185/60R14. Racing on a 60 series tire?

You mention that the weight break would be designed so they are NOT make the street car a winner and only have a chance at a podium if things work out.

According to Xian and others, these tires are not too far from a hoosier and in fact many claim that most would not see a big difference in overal time.

So if this IS the case.. then the cars swapping over to the "street tires" would already have a chance to win if things work out and they get to run the cheaper tires already.

I have run these street tires on my current street car and I love them. They are a incredible tire and they were my rain tires every race weekend until this last weekend. (the idea of having to remove the tires from my street car every race weekend was not an attractive one.)

I have raced at sebring in a dep ITB field (20+ of us on a drying track). The field was a mixed bag of tire choices. I was on Full tread RA-1s at the time and was beat out by an another compitor with his VW on Start specs. Now torque played out in that role but I was impressed with his tires.. he carried quite a bit of corner speed as the track dried.

After that I put them on my street car.. and the rest is history.

But if the performance is not that far behind the current tire, and teh idea is to give them a shot if things work out in their favor, why adjust the weight at all?

[Blair Deff]

Ok guys, I was linked here by a friend of mine who thought I might find this interesting because I mentioned to him, not a month ago, that maybe the IT alphabet should look into alternative tires, for cost reasons for existing IT platforms AND for attracting new customers. I am an IT7 guy, as you know we run a spec tire. We consistently cord RA-1's before we see a drop in speed. I am an RX-7 enthusiast, that being said I have been offered test sessions is newer ITS cars and wow, how much fun it is to drive a car newer than 79.

My brother and I have been discussing building a car together, we fall between an ITB MR2, an ITA Integra or CRX or even an ITA 240SX. Hoosier costs alone are why we have picked up an old ITC Pulsar, yes. Pulsar. For free and are just messing around with it, using the same 6 year old RA-1s it came with and loving it. If we didnt have to spend a grand every other weekend or so on tires to be fast we would already be looking for/building a chassis. That is one completely new, instant IT player if tire costs drop and that is just my story. I suspect if we do some asking around you will find similar stories. "The cost of Hoosiers are too damn high!" As it were.

This very conversation goes on in my paddock nearly every weekend and I am sure it goes on in all of yours as well in one capacity or another, I really think (or dream) that if a spec tire rule or something of the nature was put in place IT alphabet would start to come back. That is my two cents, thanks guys for bringing this subject matter to more than "you know John, with that yellow IT7 car? he said RA-1s last longer than Hoosiers."

[Xian]

The recent crop street of street tires are definitely *not* as good as a Hoosier. No way, no day. But they're pretty comparable to the RA1/NT01/etc... basically the 2nd tier R-comps of yesteryear. Apples to apples (driver/prep and only difference is tires), I'd expect there to be a second or 2 difference between 200TW and R6's. In a vacuum, the Hoosier driver *should* be able to drive away from the 200TW driver... in reality, I suspect that the gap *may* be less due to the 200TW tire being easier to drive.

I know that I've driven past/around folks in a LeChump shitbox that I "shouldn't" have been faster than... some of that was driver and some of it was that the car/tires are easy to drive at and over the limit. Not nearly as edgy as the R6 (for better and worse). As a parallel... it's the difference between a car that can lay down a single fast qualifier but is a nightmare in the race because it keeps trying to kill you vs. the car that gives up a touch of responsiveness in exchange for a setup that can be driven to 10/10th's more easily/repeatably.

[JeffYoung]

We are going to do back to back testing on the TR8 and an ITS Miata at Charlotte just to see what the real difference is. THere is a significant fear that they may not work on higher hp RWD IT cars.

All in all, you CAN run these tires right now if you want in IT. But devising means to make you competitive on them is a can of worms I certainly don't want to open right now.

[autoxmike]

We are going to do back to back testing on the TR8 and an ITS Miata at Charlotte just to see what the real difference is. THere is a significant fear that they may not work on higher hp RWD IT cars.

All in all, you CAN run these tires right now if you want in IT. But devising means to make you competitive on them is a can of worms I certainly don't want to open right now.

Jeff,

Think of it as an Adjustment to make 200TW tires a little less uncompetitive. Err on the conservative side. The idea is to throw a bone out there. This may get people that are on the fence about getting into IT to jump in. And it will encourage more current IT folk to give them a try.

Then observe and see what happens. React as appropriate.

Mike Taylor

Ps: I'm the LeChump guy trying to be constructive.. I wanna race with you all. I really do!!

[Chip42]

there are other means of incenting the people to give street tires a shot that don't go mucking with rules that are lauded for stability and objectivity.

gentlemen's agreement, race within a race. get trophies, decals etc.. to set yourselves apart but run 100% within the existing rules and classing structure so as not to make THAT scenario worse. maybe attempt to get BFG or Dunlop on board for support of testing, offering through trackside dealers we already know and appreciate, and maybe in offering contingencies.

we can do this. I'll even volunteer (my wife will kill me) to handle all of the nonsense within the CFR, and I'll help write a packet of rules / requests for sponsorship, etc.. to share with the rest of the SEDIV or NEDIV etc... to get their own matching series going. think of it as the ITNT for the rest of us. call it the Street Tire Challenge or something.

there. a championship, a way to race on street rubber. incentives in terms of competition not by trying to make performance adjustments a'la PT. if it becomes successful, SOMETHING will happen. that's how our club works.

[Matt93SE]

Just to throw another stick on the fire, I haven't bought a new tire for my car in about 5 years. There are TONs of takeoff R comps for cheap. Hell, I haven't even paid for the last (and only) 3 sets of Hoosiers I've used, and was paying $35/tire for BFG-R1 from a local MX-5 Cup team.

Do I win? No. Will I win even if I'm buying $1000 in tires every weekend? No.
So why bother paying that purple crack dealer if it's not going to put me at the top of the podium?

But hey.. uncompetitive cheapskate racers still race.

[lateapex911]

Can't really turn back the clock to the good old days of those BFG tires.

Remember those?

IT is far too wide ranging to have spec tires. Moreover, as was pointed out, you need many different sizes to accomodate IT.

I see many people happy with the Hankooks, but crying over availability.

Wait. NObody said ANYthing about a "Spec tire"

The idea was, a gentlemans agreement within the existing structure that say 200TW tires from any maker get a % weight break.

Now, coomon sense dictates that the % weight break isn't going to be the same for ITC as it is for ITR. Sorry, physics rule there. So, sadly, the ITC and ITB guys might not get the opportunity that the higher class guys get. They wouldn't anyway because of available sizes.
But, if it were to help a large percentage of racers in classes where cars can still be classed (Anyone seen a new ITC VW Bug run?) then it's a good thing.
Nothings perfect.

[quadzjr]

Chip you have enough on your plate as it is.

If you select a tire supplier to sponser, it is pretty close to a spec tire.. the only difference is tire sizes. then it becomes who can fit the largest tire on their car. After jumping up 10mm on width on my street car within the same type of tire (Dunlop star specs) it makes a big difference.

Right now the larger R compound tires do corner better but due to the increased traction they are slower in the straight line, so it kinda washes out. Before each race I have been testing 205 v 225 tires on each racetrack to determine what is the tire to have.

With the less sticky street tires the difference in rolling resistance form a 205 to 225 is not going to be as high so running a wider tire is not going to slow you down as much in the straight. In ITB this is not a really big deal as we are limited to 6" wheels. However in the higher classes with wider wheels I can see it being who can fit the rubber.

[Ron Earp]

My brother and I have been discussing building a car together, we fall between an ITB MR2, an ITA Integra or CRX or even an ITA 240SX. "

Noble effort, but you live and race in the SE where ITB/ITA racing is slim pickings. If you get your tire wish then it won't cost any extra to run in ITS where there are a lot of cars and healthy competition. There is a reason why Ron, Neil, and many others bailed on ITA.