July "Mohud at LRP" Thread...

[Ed Funk]

Dan, were you racing with Chris or lapping him?

[wepsbee]

Racing him, Just got around/let me around him!!!
Unusual for that to happen

[JLawton]

If I was Dan i would have been trying to pass him too. Laurent was obviously having some handling issues and if Dan could have sperated himself from Chris by passing Laurent, I call that race craft.

It's one of those cases of "shit happens". Dan has had some bad luck!! But it was also Laurent that got run over a few years back by a Miata. Very scarey as he was unconcious for a few minutes. Either one of those incidents would convince me that running a full cage is the way to go!!

[lateapex911]

If I was Dan i would have been trying to pass him too. Laurent was obviously having some handling issues and if Dan could have sperated himself from Chris by passing Laurent, I call that race craft.

It's one of those cases of "shit happens". Dan has had some bad luck!! But it was also Laurent that got run over a few years back by a Miata. Very scarey as he was unconcious for a few minutes. Either one of those incidents would convince me that running a full cage is the way to go!!

Hey Jeff, how's your ankle doing?? You know, the one you hurt when you put your (cageless) motorcycle down exiting 3 at NHMS?

(Damn, that was soo easy!)

Dan, The MG started from the back, and passed once. Then he went off, and was passing a second time. If it were ME, I don't THINK I would have contested the pass.
Of course, hindsight is 20/20, but it looked like his car changed after his earlier brush, and was very oversteery.

Watching the video, I was very surprised when I saw you on top of him. I ran it back in my mind: MG made aggressive move in 1, and had too much speed which carried him wide. I assumed he missed the second apex at BB (2) because he was too wide, but tried to carry too much speed and wound up wide. Then I GUESSED he got off the throttle to avoid a repeat visit, and you were close behind and ran over him.

I had no idea you had maintained an inside presence.

If it were me: (Big if)
-because he was passing me for the second time, and because he was clearly lapping faster (in order to pass me again), and because he's not in my class, and because I don't want to fill my mirrors with this tiny MG that WILL be looking for a sliver of a chance to get by, i would have let him go. I wouldn't have thought that he would have run interference for me for long, so i don't see the benefit in terms of protection...he would be more of a distraction.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I like to reply before I see other thoughts just to get my initial impressions on paper. The contact...it would seem that the first incident caused some 'looseness' with the camera car, maybe due to the contact with the wall. Even at less-than-10/10ths in the down-hill, he was fighting oversteer.

Then during the aggressive pass, he fights it through T1-T2...but I see him WAY outside at the exit of 2 - yet you still run up over him...so my though is that as he lifted to regain control, you were right on his bumper and were under power...and that resulted in contact.

[gran racing]

I'm also open to thoughts on the uphill Christian deal.

[lateapex911]

I like to reply before I see other thoughts just to get my initial impressions on paper. The contact...it would seem that the first incident caused some 'looseness' with the camera car, maybe due to the contact with the wall. Even at less-than-10/10ths in the down-hill, he was fighting oversteer.

Then during the aggressive pass, he fights it through T1-T2...but I see him WAY outside at the exit of 2 - yet you still run up over him...so my though is that as he lifted to regain control, you were right on his bumper and were under power...and that resulted in contact.

Copycat!!!

[Dano77]

Dave'

What was the Uphill Christian deal. I saw nothing I didnt expect to see other than you made a gutsy move down the inside for the uphill and passed a competiter and stuck him with a lapped car between you both.Dont know if I would have tried it, unless it was Gulick/ Lee Chee I was passing, Great Move.

Maybe I missed the deal you speak of.

Damn nice car, hope you enjoy it and bring it to NHMS so we can see it.

Dan'

Ummmm maybe discreation in Big Bend might have worked better. Just let him go. Give it a lift and let him get away, hes certainly faster. As evidenced by the fact he caught you twice. Live and Learn.

[lateapex911]

Dave'

What was the Uphill Christian deal. I saw nothing I didnt expect to see other than you made a gutsy move down the inside for the uphill and passed a competiter and stuck him with a lapped car between you both.Dont know if I would have tried it, unless it was Gulick/ Lee Chee I was passing, Great Move.

Maybe I missed the deal you speak of.

Damn nice car, hope you enjoy it and bring it to NHMS so we can see it.

Dan'

Ummmm maybe discreation in Big Bend might have worked better. Just let him go. Give it a lift and let him get away, hes certainly faster. As evidenced by the fact he caught you twice. Live and Learn.

Hey, wanna link me the vid?? I keep missing it! (Its not part of the MG vid, is it?)

[wepsbee]

Hey Jeff, how's your ankle doing?? You know, the one you hurt when you put your (cageless) motorcycle down exiting 3 at NHMS?

(Damn, that was soo easy!)

Dan, The MG started from the back, and passed once. Then he went off, and was passing a second time. If it were ME, I don't THINK I would have contested the pass.
Of course, hindsight is 20/20, but it looked like his car changed after his earlier brush, and was very oversteery.

Watching the video, I was very surprised when I saw you on top of him. I ran it back in my mind: MG made aggressive move in 1, and had too much speed which carried him wide. I assumed he missed the second apex at BB (2) because he was too wide, but tried to carry too much speed and wound up wide. Then I GUESSED he got off the throttle to avoid a repeat visit, and you were close behind and ran over him.

I had no idea you had maintained an inside presence.

If it were me: (Big if)
-because he was passing me for the second time, and because he was clearly lapping faster (in order to pass me again), and because he's not in my class, and because I don't want to fill my mirrors with this tiny MG that WILL be looking for a sliver of a chance to get by, i would have let him go. I wouldn't have thought that he would have run interference for me for long, so i don't see the benefit in terms of protection...he would be more of a distraction.

I like to reply before I see other thoughts just to get my initial impressions on paper. The contact...it would seem that the first incident caused some 'looseness' with the camera car, maybe due to the contact with the wall. Even at less-than-10/10ths in the down-hill, he was fighting oversteer.

Then during the aggressive pass, he fights it through T1-T2...but I see him WAY outside at the exit of 2 - yet you still run up over him...so my though is that as he lifted to regain control, you were right on his bumper and were under power...and that resulted in contact.

Bear in mind I had just passed chris, no small feat, and wanted to stay there, checking up enough to stay on the drivers right of the turn would also have allowed Chris to pull right back around however I do see the point though of discretion. I did think we would both just track out though, I did not expect him to come right at that point.

[gran racing]

other than you made a gutsy move down the inside for the uphill and passed a competiter and stuck him with a lapped car between you

I admit, I'm not sure how often I would have attempted that pass again. I was pretty pissed off where I was and how much I kept getting slowed down. The cars in front were in different classes. (Both cars being passed in that section.) The green Miata... I spoke with on false grid and told him that if I got in front of him during the start and he was faster, I'd find a good place to let him by. He was appreciative. After the race he had forgotten we were not in the same class. We chatted and things are good now but wtf.

Jake and others, here's the link. The uphill issue can be seen starting at the 6:02 mark.

http://youtu.be/GODg-7-AhgI

[lateapex911]

Bear in mind I had just passed chris, no small feat, and wanted to stay there, checking up enough to stay on the drivers right of the turn would also have allowed Chris to pull right back around however I do see the point though of discretion. I did think we would both just track out though, I did not expect him to come right at that point.

Haha, just ask Ahbi about passign Chris! Kidding KIDDING Chris! (Chris if you're reading you handled that situation brilliantly.)
Hey, it's racing. Each of us SHOULD be trying hard..should be at our personal 'edge'.
The successful guys know where the edge is and where you can and where you can't go over.
Sometimes you have to ease back. Risk/reward ratio and all that. Dan, I think you've been very open minded in this, and thats great. What if I suggested that you ease back a bit in the second half of Big Bend, falling behind the MG, and then protect your position by staying left-ish in the short chute to the left hander, so Chris couldn't squeeze in?? Let him get an overlap to your right. I doubt he could hold it enough to be effective come the right hander onto No Name.
The main thing you want out of the left hander is to get your turn in on the edge of the track after the late apex so you can set up for No Name. Going in a bit tight shouldn't cost you the ability to do that, will protect your position, and costs just a tad of lap time. Or am I misunderstanding the dynamics/positioning of the situation??

(All of that assumes Mr MG would have either spun off drivers right, or tank slapped a bit using significant track width, mostly to the right, and that you'd be in a position to react and stay clear)

[lateapex911]

I admit, I'm not sure how often I would have attempted that pass again. I was pretty pissed off where I was and how much I kept getting slowed down. The cars in front were in different classes. (Both cars being passed in that section.) The green Miata... I spoke with on false grid and told him that if I got in front of him during the start and he was faster, I'd find a good place to let him by. He was appreciative. After the race he had forgotten we were not in the same class. We chatted and things are good now but wtf.

Jake and others, here's the link. The uphill issue can be seen starting at the 6:02 mark.

http://youtu.be/GODg-7-AhgI

Wow, that is REALLY tough to see. Looks like there was a car (Chris) sorta outside approaching the turn in point of the uphill. I'd love to see another view.

Now the Miata on the exit of Big Bend, yea, did not leave racing room. This isn't NASA where you can push a guy 25% off track and thats within the rules.

[cchandler]

Dave,

This photo is at 6:00 on your in car video. As you can see, my nose is forward of your eyes. For the next 12 seconds I was next to you, on the left. although admittedly not always that far forward. At 6:12, I drop back as I've been forced 4 off and was trying not to crash. If you look at your mirror, you will see the same relative car position at 6:00 and 6:12.

Incidentally, at 6:12, we are at the "3 marker." If I wasn't already next to you, I would certainly not have been trying to pass, in the grass, on the outside, with only five feet of room. I was stuck there and unable to move right until I gingerly lifted, slowed and drove back on track.

Why didn't I just slow earlier and drop back?
I thought that you would leave me racing room on your left.

My intention was not to pass you prior to the uphill, only to gain an angle and radius advantage in the turn, and, maybe, get a run on you. We qualified about 1/10th apart so the only way I was getting around you was by using a tactical advantage, never on speed alone.

[mossaidis]

I don't have video from Mohud LRP event cause I left my memory card at home.

During the June NER LRP event, the blue MG (the one that made contact with Dan) seemed squirrelly at mid-corner and when putting power down during track out. Old Tires? Stiff rear Suspension? (shrug) It made it frustrating for me for sure. It slowed me down yet when Dowie's GTL was in his rear view mirror he seemed to pick up the pace. Odd.

https://vimeo.com/69186117 (around 6:00-)

At the July LRP event...

1) I was behind Dave Gran when he and the black/red pin strip STL Miata made contact repeatedly out of turn 2. 3 wide at mid-corner and coming out of that turn is not a good idea at full race tilt. It seemed it was a case of Dave being run off track by a driver that either didn't know he was there and/or could not go anywhere due to traffic on his right and in front of him.

2) I was behind Dave and Christian when they ALMOST made contact at the latter point during no-name.

3) The same green STL Miata that was interfering with Dave's race in the PM, I had to deal with during the AM race. Same deal... very frustrating since the driver seemed to prefer blocking me instead of running at race pace and/or keeping to his race line. We almost made contact in no name after he messed up left hander and hence the right hander which slowed him down on no name and allowed me to try an outside pass. Instead of driving his line, he decided to just dive bomb me on the outside... BLOCK! We had some friendly words between races but the message clearly didn't get through.

[Knestis]

At that 6:00 mark, the camera car and the red Acura are setting up for a right hand corner. Gran had moved left to go around the Miata-in-the-way before the Acura's nose got stuck in where it's show in the still above, a second or so earlier. The Acura's nose is visible in both the mirror and behind the camera car's seat, so it's easy to tell relative position at any point.

All of that looks like the Acura tried to take advantage (quite reasonably) of Gran getting bottled up behind the Miata, with what would be an outside pass into a 3-wide situation once it actually started. Gran had gotten out of the Miata trap before that pass started - albeit just immediately before - but the Acura drive put himself in a pretty tenuous position.

Now, if Gran actually moved LEFT after clearing the Miata and run the Acura out of track, that would have been a foul. But he didn't, as he was headed for the apex of the right-hander, leaving an increasing amount of room for the Acura. At that point, however, I'll bet the Acura was feathering it having discovered he had too much speed to hang there.

It was CLOSE all around, but that's what video let's us do - parse what happens down to bits of less than a second. Ultimately though, that was some pretty damned good racing.

Gran's pass later on was another opportunistic move into a tight spot, that in this case worked out fine. I can picture similar experience in my inner in-car brain-camera from years ago, where a hole opened - often because of a pick on a lapper - and I pounced. That's kind of an example of why we do this game.

K

[cchandler]

BMW, not Acura, and yes, he moved left (to the edge of the track) AFTER we both cleared the white Miata and while I was positioned to his left. I was to his left, right up to the point (6:12 on Dave's video) where there was only Armco, and little grass left,and I had to lift to avoid crashing. I hadnt "feathered" and was flat in 4th gear and expecting I would have 5 feet of track. I had a WTF thought when Dave kept moving over and squeezing me off the track. Dave admitted that he didn't see me there so it wasn't malicious intent. No car damage or injuries, so I'm happy, but it was a "moment."

I'm not against blocking to prevent a car from advancing. However, once a car is even one foot beside another car, racing room should be given, at least on a straight. Being taken to the wall, or onto the grass, is ungentlemanly and too dangerous for Club racing. I'll race my modified with the NASCAR crowd when I want that thrill. Car position and yielding for corners is a whole different discussion which has been thoroughly hashed over on previous threads.

[wepsbee]

Haha, just ask Ahbi about passign Chris! Kidding KIDDING Chris! (Chris if you're reading you handled that situation brilliantly.)
Hey, it's racing. Each of us SHOULD be trying hard..should be at our personal 'edge'.
The successful guys know where the edge is and where you can and where you can't go over.
Sometimes you have to ease back. Risk/reward ratio and all that. Dan, I think you've been very open minded in this, and thats great. What if I suggested that you ease back a bit in the second half of Big Bend, falling behind the MG, and then protect your position by staying left-ish in the short chute to the left hander, so Chris couldn't squeeze in?? Let him get an overlap to your right. I doubt he could hold it enough to be effective come the right hander onto No Name.
The main thing you want out of the left hander is to get your turn in on the edge of the track after the late apex so you can set up for No Name. Going in a bit tight shouldn't cost you the ability to do that, will protect your position, and costs just a tad of lap time. Or am I misunderstanding the dynamics/positioning of the situation??

(All of that assumes Mr MG would have either spun off drivers right, or tank slapped a bit using significant track width, mostly to the right, and that you'd be in a position to react and stay clear)

Yup, Yup and yup. I agree that sounds now like the way to go. At the time I really thought given the speed at which he passed me there was no way him and I would meet at the track out spot of that turn. I fully expected him to be ahead there. As I am coming around T2 I was holding on to the car looking down track. He was along side now and not a good spot to apply the brakes, I did of course left at that time a bit but.....I held it straight expecting us both to head down track for a bit and trend right for the lefthander setup with him now on the inside.

[gran racing]

I'm not against blocking to prevent a car from advancing. However, once a car is even one foot beside another car, racing room should be given, at least on a straight

I am against blocking. Making it difficult and not just giving it away is different. And yes, I agree racing room should always be given even if it's just enough.

My car is at a shop and have a $700 bill plus some needed parts from the Big Bend deal. I hate that, it's not fun, can't afford it.... I'm out to race hard, have fun, and enjoy hanging out with friends.

[lateapex911]

In the greater scope and the bigger picture, I think it's important to define "blocking, so everyone is on the same page.

Typically, you are blocking if you move your car in a mirror manner to keep a faster car behind. If you the lead car chose to drive down the inside of the straight and the braking area, and you hold that line, allowing a following driver the rest of the track, and if he gains an overlap, you do not move over on him forcing him off the road, then you are not 'blocking'. (In my estimation)

But, move to the right into the T1 braking area at LRP, then when the following car goes to the left to gain ground, and you move left? You're a blockhead.


(Now, I've come up on a lapper, (A NEon), and had him dive to the inside every time I'd go to the inside to outbrake him. After the race I called him a blocking MF-er. (Not to his face, he wasn't in impound, LOL!) Technically I was wrong. He was a defensive MF-er. But, if you are getting lapped, and it's not an enduro and you're not 'on pace", you've been caught for a reason. Don't be a dick holding back a guy in a lower class, whether it's technically blocking or not.)