SCCA vs Lemons... You Decide!

[MMiskoe]

Interesting comments I see here. Having done a lot of SCCA and EMRA enduros and a few Lemons (no chump) I can see some differences.

IN SCCA if you want to try and win the class there is nothing stopping you. If you want to just show up, do some laps have fun, drive/prep at your own pace you can, but there are probably cheaper ways to spend the weekend. In Lemons, if you really have your heart set on a class or overall win, well good luck. The deck is not stacked in your favor. You've got a class structure that is not a level playing field, scrutineers who are just passing judgement on your car, not actually comparing it to a standard. Driving hard is frowned upon. Put two wheels off - come in and have a chat. Have someone rub you, stop and have a chat. The list goes on.

I'm not so keen on putting it all together for a 12 or 24 hour race where I have to worry about that wheel bearing, or the alternator giving out because I can't spend the extra $100 to replace it. However, if you're in it for chuckles and you don't mind farting around w/ junk its great.

If you take the idea that Lemons is cheaper, you're kidding yourself. Take the buy in cost away from it, the costs are pretty even. And while you're at it, go look at the cars finishing in the top 5. Pretty unlikely you'd really only part them out for $500, so even the buy in isn't cheap if you want to finish well. Comments about the BMW's ruining it are evidence of that - people have found 'the car' to have and exploiting it.

Lemons has a lower entry bar which attracts people who want to give it a try. But once they get serious about it (I suspect) they will find that if you want that trophy, luck is more what you need than prep. This will work for a few years before it gets well known that you're not going to win w/ a $500 car. Then the draw of a cheap series will wear off.

As far as the driving, I think because the speeds are lower in Crap can you can get away with less skill. I don't want to think about what it would look like in a field of cars that can stop & turn as fast a club racers can if the drivers are only on regular street license. SM got a bad name when it first started because people thought they were hero's because they seemed like cars that could do anything. It took a few bent cars to make people realize, that like most any other type of car, 10/10ths is hard to do. Lemons cars just don't (typically) have that kind of ability so people don't get in over their heads as easily.

I've stood on the top step of podiums in both SCCA and Lemons. The costs are similar, both are expensive but SCCA has a field that allows you to truly try for that top position. Lemons is just for fun.

BTW there is a post over on the Sandbox about 8 pages long about why it is that Crap Can can successfully host a dozen races a year whereas SCCA (NJ Devil and VIR 13 hr) rarely sell out. Much of this stuff is there.

[Flyinglizard]

Gran,
If you ran @ Nelson. .. Nelson is so narrow that the 5 ITB cars that run there run each other off of the road. Add in 85 Chumps and that will be a little busy. IMHO. I avoid Nelson. no matter what.
Watkins Glen was much better, Sebring, Daytona are really clean and considerate.
Tracks with connecting turns(IE; Road Atlanta T3-5) will always have more contact than the longer straight tracks. ( IE; Sebring)

I dont understand the luck statement. Make your own luck by having a well prepped car.
Chump allows all fresh parts. We dont need guys breaking down and bringing out the flat tow. Plus we want the racers to have a good time, not fix their car..

The best parts of each .. Chump, Hassle free classes and tech.
Hassle free driver medical, /License
Lots of track time VS sit time
Epic races, Epic tracks, ( esp for outsiders)

SCCA; what have we??

[RSTPerformance]

SCCA; what have we??

Professional racing for amature racers. In several cases the races are better than any pro series around the world.

Not saying that a lemons or chump car race doesn't have some good races but if your intent is to bash SCCA please put on a 100 car chump sprint race then lets compare.

As I mentioned Chump and Lemons are a great "fun" race to play in. When you want to get more professional go to an SCCA event like the Devil in the Dark. If you don't like the professional type racing stay where you are. Both are a blast IMO!!! But totally different.

Raymond

[Xian]

The reference about car speeds... LeMons tends to be slower as prep is lower, average driver talent is lower, and the penalties for going off are higher. Chump is faster. For instance, the times for the top 10 finishers at Daytona Chump the other weekend were 2:16-2:25. I think 2:25 I'd pretty quick for something with 125whp as that's a solid mid-pack ITA time without even accounting for street tires vs. race tires.

As I've said other places: SCCA has sprint racing down pat. The best amateur stuff you'll find. Fields are class and region dependent but no other org has the same blend of skill and prep. NASA does TT and HPDE the best. Their club racing ranges from poor to good depending on the area but they kill everyone on TT and DE. LeMons has the fun "racing" market cornered. Divide by 4 affordability, quirky builds, and awesome parties. Chump has a great blend of racing, affordability, and fun. Is it as "hard" of racin as an SCCA sprint? Of course not, it's an enduro! Still, very close racing... At Daytona, 1st had it tied up with a 4 lap lead over second. From 2nd back to 7th it was 5 laps. After *14 Hours*. That's prett damn good IMO.

[Knestis]

Best aspect of Raymond's post is trying to control for race length in the comparison conversation.

Having the street tire experience in the Mazda convinced me that has been a huge part of the cost difference between SCCA and other enduros to this point. Take that out of the mix, and they get a LOT closer. Compare the cost of the rest of the car and preparation - this time controlling for how far up the field one wants to be (call it "competitiveness") - and it's truly a wash.

There's no reason that the parties couldn't be the same. For the people having the real fun, I think they may already be.

K

[Flyinglizard]

Raymond,
I promote SCCA. But I can see the many shortcommings.

The SCCA endurance races have moved away from the casual deal. The lack of Minumum timed stops and allowing overhead fuel rigs really hurt the participation.

The tire rule is a very real cost (per Kirk.) I cant see any reason to buy 12 Hoosiers for a 14hr race. not gunna happen. (In fact I now run my IT cars in Prod for the tires.)

If you look at my proposed rule set, you'll note that IT cars can run the classes with the proper tires. TW of 180 or higher. If the car is well balanced, you may get 20hrs per tire set.

SCCA has the very best sprint races. The car count is getting weak as the cost have gone up.
The prep levels of Chumpcar and SCCA are the same, for the front runners.

Cost per hr is not a factor either way. other than tires.

Bottom line, When you mention SCCA at a Chump race, you dont get many , "yeah lets do that."
Many Chump teams are using the SCCA PDX for testing right now.
Most teams have at least one driver with some prior SCCA experience .( mostly not good)
How can we get the cars racing with SCCA?

The market has moved to longer races with less down time over the weekend. Can SCCA move some ?

I would think that Sprint races on Sat and PDX and longer races on Sun may fill up some dates better . Could that work?

SCCA ,by far, has the very poor promotions department. We advertise to ourselves.

[jimbbski]

I have raced in IT off & on for over 20+ years I also got involved in Lemons about a year and a half ago. I was aware of it having attended two local races just to see what it was like. I was involved in building the "Breadvan Opel GT" that runs in the Midwest. After having a number of problems in the first race the car has run mostly trouble free since then.

In April at Gingerman it finished or was running in the top 3 in Class B and yesterday at Autobahn it finished FIRST! The team experienced no mechanical problems, no black flags, and incident free driver change/fuel stops.

This is a 1971 Opel GT with a ALFA rear end, a FORD 2.3L engine, and a T5 trans. I prepped the engine and trans and that consisted mostly of taking it apart and making sure nothing was worn out or on the verge of breaking! Both are still stock inside other then some minor porting of the head.

I agree to win overall it takes a good car and luck but it does take preparation, as much as any SCCA IT car needs.

I only just in the past month helped a Lemons team get into their first race. They were racing a stock Saturn, and I mean Stock! The only race prep was a brake job and the required safety stuff. I helped with the roll cage install. The results this past weekend were a blowed up engine 2 hrs in on Sat. but a spare was installed by Sunday morning and they got some additional track time then. I think the total investment other then entry fees and personal safety equipment was less then $2K split 4 ways.

[CRallo]

In short, Lemons makes a mockery of racing, I don't think I could do it. Not even "just for fun". ChumpCar I would consider...