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Thread: SCCA vs Lemons... You Decide!

  1. #1
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    Default SCCA vs Lemons... You Decide!

    As may of you know I had the opportunity with our team (RST Performance Racing) to run the 12hr Devil in the Dark this year in the ITR Mazda RX8 (very fun/cool car). Two weeks later I had the opportunity to drive in the 15hr Lemons Race at NHMS with another team I am on called "Got Wood." That car is now a Porsche 944 that is powered by a 1.8 Audi turbo motor from an A4... yes another very cool car.

    In NJ the RST Performance Racing team did a full on effort that IMO was a huge success especially considering it was our first real enduro more than 4hrs. as a team.

    At NHMS the Got Wood team didn't have the same success due to mechanical issues and some bogus/unfounded on track penalties. This was our third unsuccessful attempt (another story for another day). I did however get my "full stint" of driving without to many issues so I do think it is fair for me to make a comparison.

    First I want to tackle the issue that seems to fill up other threads... driving.
    • To make the comparison that people seem to be making is like comparing apples to oranges (whatever the quote is). Everyone seems to compare SCCA sprint racing to Lemons or Chump-Car endurance racing. YOU CANNOT DO THAT. You need to compare to SCCA endurance racing. If you put these Lemons cars into a 30 minute sprint race it will be a completely different scenario just like it is when you put a bunch of IT or dare I say "miata" drivers into a 12hr SCCA endurance race... it is totally different. Why? Because making that pass right now is no where near as critical (unless you are in the last hour of racing and still lucky enough to be battling for position). Amazingly people get that in SCCA and in Lemons. The focus changes from winning to finishing when the race gets that long. SO PLEASE STOP making that comparison, it is not valid. Both are relatively incident free here in the Northeast from what I have seen.
    • The talent in SCCA is FAR higher than any of these other series, and it should be. In SCCA you cannot race with us until you have some experience and prove you are safe. In these other series all you need is a non-suspended drivers license (no they don’t check your driving record). I am not going to argue some darn good drivers are in both SCCA and Lemons as well as other series... after all I drive in both (smile folks). All joking aside though anyone who argues that the overall talent in SCCA is lower than Lemons has something that is clouding their personal judgment...
    The Second topic that was surprising to me is cost. Believe it or not SCCA endurance racing is cheaper, well sorta.
    • The entry fees appear to be cheaper. From what I have seen, SCCA is around $700-$800 including all drivers AND crew/family. Lemons and other series are over $1,000 and I know in Lemons that doesn’t include crew or family (that is another $20 per person).
    • Membership however is the other way around. SCCA is well over $200 for a membership and competition license where as Lemons is just $50.00. This to me is a huge issue for SCCA as this is a rather steep initial cost that isn't directly related to any event. This doesn't include the fact that before you race in SCCA you also need to attend at least one or more things we call a school (really I think it should be called a test). NO school needed for Lemons, all you need to do is pass the test at the DMV!
    • The cars.... We all know that $500 is a completely bogus number when it comes to Lemons. Sure the car is worth $500 when you start and the thing looks like a complete rat trap but when you add in all the safety stuff it is easily as expensive as a "home built" IT car. On the flip side though the costs are split among several drivers (nothing says a team of SCCA enduro drivers couldn't do that though). You also would be surprised at how inexpensive creative people with talent can do things. Take for example the 1.8 Audi turbo conversion in the 944. A few people with some engineering talent, some Audi Porsche knowledge and a few more people that are good at welding and you have something that to most is ridiculously expensive but to the Got Wood team was less expensive than a new used 944 motor. Lemons happens to love this type of stuff where as SCCA doesn't realistically have a good place for it.
    • The Prep work... It really doesn't matter what you are racing, if you want a car to last 12- 15hrs you need a lot of luck and/or a lot of prep work (replacement of wear items). This is expensive and is relative to your car choice, not SCCA or Lemons. The only thing that does make Lemons cheaper is the fact that 90% of the people in SCCA at an enduro spend a ton of money and time on prep where as 90% of the people in Lemons spend a lot of time and money being creative rather than preparing the car to last 12-15hrs. In SCCA you need to do the prep work if you want to be “in the race” where as in lemons so many other cars are also breaking that you can still have fun and finish in the top half even if you have mechanical issues. If you disagree then please stop reading and go work the tow truck at both events and get back to me!
    Rules..
    • Lemons car classifications have no real rules but two "judges" that do an amazing job at splitting the cars up into three classes that are realistically very close in competition. Sure sometimes people will pull a fast one or provide a bribe to cheat but they do have this figured out, and everyone is on equal playing ground. Cheating is encouraged and bribes are encouraged. SCCA has tons of rules that provides a significantly more professional racing experience (even on an amature level) through structure, organization and expectations. However it also significantly restricts open creativity and often makes things actually cost more money.
    • Lemons Safety rules are significantly more strict than SCCA (how many are surprised at that one? I know I was!). This includes everything from roll cage rules to driver egress to driver gear.
    • On track driving behavior is not even up for discussion in Lemons if it is your fault or not. The more you argue the closer you are to the gate. Your best bet is to make a cash donation to the charity they are promoting. Personally I think this part of Lemons sucks. SCCA once again has a TON of rules and provides far more structure for a professional racing series. However the draw back is that it is overwhelming to newbie’s and requires uncomfortable driver participation in the process. The process has changed significantly over the past few years to be more driver friendly but still is underused buy the participants. Drivers that do use the process are looked at as "difficult" people.
    The competition...
    • Both provide some excellent competition especially if you want to win overall. I have to admit though... In SCCA events using SCCA classing we have way to many classes making the competition very thin however at the Devil in the Dark they use a class structure that combines classes resolving this issue. In Lemons they have a limited class structure but ~85% of the cars are really not much of anything other than a chicane to the average racer. Either way, if you want t win your class you better bring your A game and a good car.
    So what is better??? You decide. I personally think that both provide a completely different but satisfying experience. I don’t think that the events are in “competition” with one another as people suggest. The two are so different in so many ways that they will either attract someone who likes one or the other or someone that likes both. The trick is to figure out who likes both, market them and make it easy for them to give it a try and check it out.

    Raymond “trying to be an unbiased guy” Blethen
    RST Performance Racing
    www.rstperformance.com

  2. #2
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    PS: feel free to post your thoughts or ask questions... I will be glad to share my thoughts on any aspect of the comparison.
    RST Performance Racing
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  3. #3
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    I think ChumpCar adds yet another sector. For what it's worth, I was shocked to see several paid pro drivers competing in the one Chump event that I did. Even more surprised to see just how much money many cars truly had in them.
    Dave Gran
    Real Roads, Real Car Guys – Real World Road Tests
    Go Ahead - Take the Wheel's Free Guide to Racing

  4. #4
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    Awesome post Raymond! I've not done a Lemons event but have always looked at the comparison to SCCA as two very different events - Lemons is a goof around race for fun while scca is pretty serious fun :-) how serious are the Lemons teams about trying to win?
    BenSpeed
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    Try Chumpcar, way faster, way serious. Most of the "pro" drivers are paying. Randy, Pavalado, etc . A few are semi sponsered.
    Many chump teams put a lot of money towards charity.

    Lemons uses the three classes, based upon the tech guys opinion. It actually works pretty well and keeps the slow cars coming back with a chance for a trophy.

    Ihave been trying for 2 yrs to get some classes for the Chumps . The E36 speed cars have ruined the chance for the original 500$ VW and Hondogs. Thus the slower cars have reduced their participation and their towing distance, just running the close tracks/home tracks.

    Contact is not well received.
    Last edited by Flyinglizard; 06-06-2013 at 08:57 AM.
    Mike Ogren , FWDracingguide.com, 352.4288.983 ,http://www.ogren-engineering.com/

  6. #6
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    Contact is not well received.
    I've only participated in one event and I've never been more afraid of being in a car and being taken out and getting hurt than with ChumpCar. And coming from SM last year...

    They did black flag the race to have a chat, but it was totally insane.

    It was quite clear that there is a HUGE disparity in the cars which are on track. Great concept...
    Dave Gran
    Real Roads, Real Car Guys – Real World Road Tests
    Go Ahead - Take the Wheel's Free Guide to Racing

  7. #7
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    Raymond

    Very comprehensive and balanced comparison.

    Thanks for developing it

    Terry

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    I raced with Tribe IDP's Quest team last year at Halloween Hooptiefest's at NHMS in Oct 27-28, 2012. What a blast!!! Lemons is about safety, silliness, racing and fun. Within the first 2 laps of the 15 hour race we started 120th but ended up 10th which was a feat. IMAGINE 135 cars at NHMS on track at the same time! :O My co-drivers with COMSCCers like myself, we knew NHMS and could mgmt traffic well yet we still felt a need to compete and do well. Yeah, there were some drivers that didn't have a clue yet I need to give them credit - they were out there trying, doing their best. Of course, there was ONE team that was all out of sorts... hence they got black flagged after they fendered a number of us. Bye bye. But whatev'... we were driving an e30 eta car that was banged up anyways and no one was remotely close to getting hurt. It is cheap and fun enduro racing. I spent $600 the whole weekend between gas, tires (Azenis) and seat time. PLEASE... a fraction of a SCCA weekend yet I totally agree with the write-up. You can't compare two on the same plain - they are just different.

    Here's some video from the event. The Tribe IDP's Quest car is painted half white and the other black, representing east coast vs west coast rap. Headlights and brakelights were removed and replaced with 6x9 speakers. We added a mid-mounted brake light btw. We cut two round 6" holes on the rear quarter panels and installed sub-woofers. The trunk had amps and amps and amps of amplifiers connected to a rear deck mounted ipod which blasted rap music all day on Sunday. Enjoy.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqI7nk3cbHQ[/ame] we fly by out of T12 at 4:16

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqW1cydca7U[/ame] just f^cking insane funny

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGqJtGgIT7Q&feature=relmfu[/ame] more taxi

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIQ0JExUuGA[/ame] 1:22 turner vs us

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j18G-3P-xug[/ame] the flipped car

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fJNOosELPw[/ame] 5:00 stereo blasting, dude thinks we are in miata at 6:40ish, says that Crypuss Hill lifts up the mode
    Last edited by mossaidis; 06-06-2013 at 06:17 PM.
    Demetrius Mossaidis aka 'Mickey' #12 ITA NESCCA
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  9. #9
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    Interesting comments I see here. Having done a lot of SCCA and EMRA enduros and a few Lemons (no chump) I can see some differences.

    IN SCCA if you want to try and win the class there is nothing stopping you. If you want to just show up, do some laps have fun, drive/prep at your own pace you can, but there are probably cheaper ways to spend the weekend. In Lemons, if you really have your heart set on a class or overall win, well good luck. The deck is not stacked in your favor. You've got a class structure that is not a level playing field, scrutineers who are just passing judgement on your car, not actually comparing it to a standard. Driving hard is frowned upon. Put two wheels off - come in and have a chat. Have someone rub you, stop and have a chat. The list goes on.

    I'm not so keen on putting it all together for a 12 or 24 hour race where I have to worry about that wheel bearing, or the alternator giving out because I can't spend the extra $100 to replace it. However, if you're in it for chuckles and you don't mind farting around w/ junk its great.

    If you take the idea that Lemons is cheaper, you're kidding yourself. Take the buy in cost away from it, the costs are pretty even. And while you're at it, go look at the cars finishing in the top 5. Pretty unlikely you'd really only part them out for $500, so even the buy in isn't cheap if you want to finish well. Comments about the BMW's ruining it are evidence of that - people have found 'the car' to have and exploiting it.

    Lemons has a lower entry bar which attracts people who want to give it a try. But once they get serious about it (I suspect) they will find that if you want that trophy, luck is more what you need than prep. This will work for a few years before it gets well known that you're not going to win w/ a $500 car. Then the draw of a cheap series will wear off.

    As far as the driving, I think because the speeds are lower in Crap can you can get away with less skill. I don't want to think about what it would look like in a field of cars that can stop & turn as fast a club racers can if the drivers are only on regular street license. SM got a bad name when it first started because people thought they were hero's because they seemed like cars that could do anything. It took a few bent cars to make people realize, that like most any other type of car, 10/10ths is hard to do. Lemons cars just don't (typically) have that kind of ability so people don't get in over their heads as easily.

    I've stood on the top step of podiums in both SCCA and Lemons. The costs are similar, both are expensive but SCCA has a field that allows you to truly try for that top position. Lemons is just for fun.

    BTW there is a post over on the Sandbox about 8 pages long about why it is that Crap Can can successfully host a dozen races a year whereas SCCA (NJ Devil and VIR 13 hr) rarely sell out. Much of this stuff is there.

  10. #10
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    Gran,
    If you ran @ Nelson. .. Nelson is so narrow that the 5 ITB cars that run there run each other off of the road. Add in 85 Chumps and that will be a little busy. IMHO. I avoid Nelson. no matter what.
    Watkins Glen was much better, Sebring, Daytona are really clean and considerate.
    Tracks with connecting turns(IE; Road Atlanta T3-5) will always have more contact than the longer straight tracks. ( IE; Sebring)

    I dont understand the luck statement. Make your own luck by having a well prepped car.
    Chump allows all fresh parts. We dont need guys breaking down and bringing out the flat tow. Plus we want the racers to have a good time, not fix their car..

    The best parts of each .. Chump, Hassle free classes and tech.
    Hassle free driver medical, /License
    Lots of track time VS sit time
    Epic races, Epic tracks, ( esp for outsiders)

    SCCA; what have we??
    Mike Ogren , FWDracingguide.com, 352.4288.983 ,http://www.ogren-engineering.com/

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyinglizard View Post

    SCCA; what have we??
    Professional racing for amature racers. In several cases the races are better than any pro series around the world.

    Not saying that a lemons or chump car race doesn't have some good races but if your intent is to bash SCCA please put on a 100 car chump sprint race then lets compare.

    As I mentioned Chump and Lemons are a great "fun" race to play in. When you want to get more professional go to an SCCA event like the Devil in the Dark. If you don't like the professional type racing stay where you are. Both are a blast IMO!!! But totally different.

    Raymond
    RST Performance Racing
    www.rstperformance.com

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    The reference about car speeds... LeMons tends to be slower as prep is lower, average driver talent is lower, and the penalties for going off are higher. Chump is faster. For instance, the times for the top 10 finishers at Daytona Chump the other weekend were 2:16-2:25. I think 2:25 I'd pretty quick for something with 125whp as that's a solid mid-pack ITA time without even accounting for street tires vs. race tires.

    As I've said other places: SCCA has sprint racing down pat. The best amateur stuff you'll find. Fields are class and region dependent but no other org has the same blend of skill and prep. NASA does TT and HPDE the best. Their club racing ranges from poor to good depending on the area but they kill everyone on TT and DE. LeMons has the fun "racing" market cornered. Divide by 4 affordability, quirky builds, and awesome parties. Chump has a great blend of racing, affordability, and fun. Is it as "hard" of racin as an SCCA sprint? Of course not, it's an enduro! Still, very close racing... At Daytona, 1st had it tied up with a 4 lap lead over second. From 2nd back to 7th it was 5 laps. After *14 Hours*. That's prett damn good IMO.
    Christian in FL | Something white with Honda on the valve cover...
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  13. #13
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    Best aspect of Raymond's post is trying to control for race length in the comparison conversation.

    Having the street tire experience in the Mazda convinced me that has been a huge part of the cost difference between SCCA and other enduros to this point. Take that out of the mix, and they get a LOT closer. Compare the cost of the rest of the car and preparation - this time controlling for how far up the field one wants to be (call it "competitiveness") - and it's truly a wash.

    There's no reason that the parties couldn't be the same. For the people having the real fun, I think they may already be.

    K

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    Raymond,
    I promote SCCA. But I can see the many shortcommings.

    The SCCA endurance races have moved away from the casual deal. The lack of Minumum timed stops and allowing overhead fuel rigs really hurt the participation.

    The tire rule is a very real cost (per Kirk.) I cant see any reason to buy 12 Hoosiers for a 14hr race. not gunna happen. (In fact I now run my IT cars in Prod for the tires.)

    If you look at my proposed rule set, you'll note that IT cars can run the classes with the proper tires. TW of 180 or higher. If the car is well balanced, you may get 20hrs per tire set.

    SCCA has the very best sprint races. The car count is getting weak as the cost have gone up.
    The prep levels of Chumpcar and SCCA are the same, for the front runners.

    Cost per hr is not a factor either way. other than tires.

    Bottom line, When you mention SCCA at a Chump race, you dont get many , "yeah lets do that."
    Many Chump teams are using the SCCA PDX for testing right now.
    Most teams have at least one driver with some prior SCCA experience .( mostly not good)
    How can we get the cars racing with SCCA?

    The market has moved to longer races with less down time over the weekend. Can SCCA move some ?

    I would think that Sprint races on Sat and PDX and longer races on Sun may fill up some dates better . Could that work?

    SCCA ,by far, has the very poor promotions department. We advertise to ourselves.
    Mike Ogren , FWDracingguide.com, 352.4288.983 ,http://www.ogren-engineering.com/

  15. #15
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    I have raced in IT off & on for over 20+ years I also got involved in Lemons about a year and a half ago. I was aware of it having attended two local races just to see what it was like. I was involved in building the "Breadvan Opel GT" that runs in the Midwest. After having a number of problems in the first race the car has run mostly trouble free since then.

    In April at Gingerman it finished or was running in the top 3 in Class B and yesterday at Autobahn it finished FIRST! The team experienced no mechanical problems, no black flags, and incident free driver change/fuel stops.

    This is a 1971 Opel GT with a ALFA rear end, a FORD 2.3L engine, and a T5 trans. I prepped the engine and trans and that consisted mostly of taking it apart and making sure nothing was worn out or on the verge of breaking! Both are still stock inside other then some minor porting of the head.

    I agree to win overall it takes a good car and luck but it does take preparation, as much as any SCCA IT car needs.

    I only just in the past month helped a Lemons team get into their first race. They were racing a stock Saturn, and I mean Stock! The only race prep was a brake job and the required safety stuff. I helped with the roll cage install. The results this past weekend were a blowed up engine 2 hrs in on Sat. but a spare was installed by Sunday morning and they got some additional track time then. I think the total investment other then entry fees and personal safety equipment was less then $2K split 4 ways.
    1988 ITA Scriocco 16V #80
    MCSCC member since 1988

  16. #16
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    In short, Lemons makes a mockery of racing, I don't think I could do it. Not even "just for fun". ChumpCar I would consider...
    Chris Rallo "the kid"
    -- "wrenching and racing" -- "will race for food!" -- "Onward and Upward"

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