Trying for Nationwide Crap Can class unity

[Xian]

Jake, you're just trying to be difficult. You know damn well that the labor isn't figured in.

I think 80 hours is way on the high side FWIW. After the Daytona 14, the Tr0nsAm needed pads/rotors and fresh oil. Yes, really. Now it's ready for the RA regional and will have 3 or 4 drivers in it covering the double SARRC, ECR, and Pro-IT. I'll bet it's on the same tires as Daytona. Which are the same tires as it was on for RA before that.

I feel like I'm setting myself on a repeat loop but the prep requirements are lower because the "warts and all" aspects of cars can be "fixed". And since the suspension/brakes don't see the same loads (thermal and G) that race tires provide, you don't burn through ball joints, tie rods, etc like IT cars. It's way the hell cheaper than IT but its also way the hell different. Apples, oranges, etc.

Yes, equipment failure happens but it's not as common as you'd think (assuming you keep a focus on simple prep and attention to detail). Could the car explode or get crashed before your stint? Of course... But that's no different than any other enduro. Nature of the beast.

FWIW, from the outside looking in, you and some others seem to be trying to find ways to tear down Chump. My $0.02 would be to accept that it's an alternative to folks who like cars and like racing and who also have become a bit disillusioned with the idea of "amateur" racing with SCCA. As much as I'd enjoy some of the aspects of getting back into IT/Prod/ST, the tire costs, prep requirements, and cubic dollars to run at the front just aren't for me. Entry fee/track time is also out of whack compared to Chump. I'd never suggest that someone give up IT for Chump but it's well worth checking out.

PS
There was a Chump 300ZX at Roebling yesterday... They were turning 1:20's on street tires. Obviously it's not a "real" race car though.

[Flyinglizard]

80hrs per 24-28 race hrs.
Not every 14hr race.

The Turbo Jett gets a fresh head gasket every race, new oil every other race

[Bill Miller]

Bingo. Agreed eleventy seven brazillion percent. I've heard (and said) the same thing in IT and Chump paddocks.

I'm sure folks will threaten to crucify me for it but, in the long term, a readjustment to the IT tire rules would go a long way toward reigning in some of the advantage that high dollar suspension parts yield. It still wouldn't address the underlying "problem" behind the IT full-tilt build mentality.

And what exactly do you see as this 'problem'? Most racers are Type A personality people. Highly competitive, and want to win. It doesn't matter what kind of racing series you have, you will always have people that will spend whatever it takes to build to the limit of the rules. That's just how a lot of racers are wired.

Chump will eventually be no different, it just hasn't gotten there yet. Comments like "it's still fun", "lots of low-hanging fruit", "it's what IT was 15 years ago", etc. reinforce that. The more people get interested, the more it will attract those w/ the 'spend whatever it takes' mentality. It may be relatively inexpensive now, and lots of fun, but if you think the dollars won't eventually come in and up the game for everybody, you haven't been around very long.

I bet there are quite a few people here that either knew of, or were one of, the folks that drove their IT cars to the track. The last guy I knew that did this was Kirk, when he drove Pablo home to NC after the 12-hour at Summit Point in '05 (I think). And even then, he was an anomaly. Heck, I remember when enclosed trailers at a Regional race were an anomaly. Those days are long gone.

[Xian]

And what exactly do you see as this 'problem'? Most racers are Type A personality people. Highly competitive, and want to win. It doesn't matter what kind of racing series you have, you will always have people that will spend whatever it takes to build to the limit of the rules. That's just how a lot of racers are wired.

Chump will eventually be no different, it just hasn't gotten there yet. Comments like "it's still fun", "lots of low-hanging fruit", "it's what IT was 15 years ago", etc. reinforce that. The more people get interested, the more it will attract those w/ the 'spend whatever it takes' mentality. It may be relatively inexpensive now, and lots of fun, but if you think the dollars won't eventually come in and up the game for everybody, you haven't been around very long.

I bet there are quite a few people here that either knew of, or were one of, the folks that drove their IT cars to the track. The last guy I knew that did this was Kirk, when he drove Pablo home to NC after the 12-hour at Summit Point in '05 (I think). And even then, he was an anomaly. Heck, I remember when enclosed trailers at a Regional race were an anomaly. Those days are long gone.

I'm well aware of the life cycle of "cheap racing"... I've been as much a part of the problem as the solution. I'd like to think that I've wised up and that I've got a more healthy perspective on racing now. I 100% understand and agree that's you can't (edit: accidentally typed "can") easily use rules to limit spending but, to some degree, you can use them to limit the advantage of spending cubic dollars.

I remember back with Dr K would drive is car to the track... the only other person I know who does it is Kai with his ITS Civic.

Chump spending will absolutely increase... but the street tires limit the gains of what you can do with the suspension. The rules discourage "obvious" cheats. The format encourages consistency and reliability over outright speed. The rules allow you to reduce consumables costs. Because of these things, I doubt it will get as expensive to run at the front as IT is.

[lateapex911]

Good points on the labor factor Christian. Of course car choice is massively important in that respect. As you point out, you can burn some cars down with IT level mods, but others will hum all day long. Tire allowance is certainly an area where massive spending could be controlled...to a degree. But jamming that genie back in the bottle, wow, thats tough.
I had as you might remember, amassed, after years of 'collecting', 5 sets of wheels and had 4 different types of tires mounted at all times. Lots of guys do, and to change tire rules means tehy now have a huge obsolete collection.

Another reason that rules should be examined carefully before they are changed. Once allowed, there's not much turning back.

I know guys who are all giddy that the radiator overflow bottle rule got removed, (I missed that one, I guess) as certain cars have a big old hole behind it and now it's a nice source of fresh cold air. So some cars gain, others do not. Too late now....

[Flyinglizard]

Solo, stock has headed back to street tires .

All it takes is a few guys in your class, agreeing to buy harder tires.
The racers in the Dominican Republic( and many parts of the world) do exactly that. They spend big money on the hard parts, but the tires are such a hassle to get and keep enough of that they are racing on Kumho XS.(2012 I think the same this year.)

180TW has many choices, last many hrs and have very little fall off , if any.

The Miata can be run in Chumpcar for very little cost per hr. maybe 150$. But they are slow next to the E36 and the 200Hp cars.
I chose the VW, as that is what I have been running over the years. The first year we were top 10 pace wise. finished 2nd at our best race. Now the NA VW pace is about mid pack.
The VW needs more Love than the Miata, breaks more head gaskets, hubs etc. Then most of my guys wanted to go faster , I had some turbo bits left from my prior business, and it went down hill from there.
I chose a car that is not easy to run long races with. my own fault.

Meanwhile, I have been in an endless loop with SCCA. The region says that the rules must go thru CRB, OK.
CRB say that any region can run what they want. At this point I am try to use the free promo value of the Grassroots challenge, running a car with SCCA class tags on it.

Funny thing is that NASA just says , bring a few cars and have fun.
PBOC, same.
The size of SCCA and the bureaucracy is a lot of our problems, moving at a snail's pace, if at all.

The small regions, trying to hang onto life, move much faster.

I am on the edge of being banned ( big surprise) from the Chump Forum for listing non Chump places to run the cars. Nelson SCCA CRX deal was posted last week, removed.
While we have many SCCA/ Chumps discussing the values of each on this forum. Nice, thanks.

Chumpy cars are not for everyone. Part of the allure is that they can be cut, modded, hot rodded, swapped.
Another part is the lack of classes. That would be fine if it also had some rules that were enforced. IMHO.

The outside perception of SCCA; old codgers racing old cars. Spot on, IMHO
Too many classes with 3 cars per class. again pretty close.

Too much hassle to get a license. Maybe. NASA is harder IMHO

Tech sucks. Maybe valid. Much better now than in the past.

Short track time VS tow time; valid. Splitting groups into each day would maybe have some sell, by reducing down time and overnight cost. 2hrs per day could increase the participation, IMHO.

Outsiders perception of Chump; Anyone can drive, good and bad, valid
Any car can run, valid

Long hard fast races. Valid
Generally nice people, valid

Short story. no progress. The ERW cages may preclude many Chumpers from being allowed into any SCCA Class.( most cage kits are ERW) /

[Xian]

As far as the original Classing question, can you run/do you have an ITX class? ATL Region runs this and there are a couple Chump cars that enter. ITX is a catchall for all cars that have been built to another series' ruleset and have IT required safety elements (cage, seat, net, etc). It could theoretically have SpecE30, Spec944, etc as well as Chump cars populating it.

Good points on the labor factor Christian. Of course car choice is massively important in that respect. As you point out, you can burn some cars down with IT level mods, but others will hum all day long. Tire allowance is certainly an area where massive spending could be controlled...to a degree. But jamming that genie back in the bottle, wow, thats tough.
I had as you might remember, amassed, after years of 'collecting', 5 sets of wheels and had 4 different types of tires mounted at all times. Lots of guys do, and to change tire rules means tehy now have a huge obsolete collection.

Another reason that rules should be examined carefully before they are changed. Once allowed, there's not much turning back.

I know guys who are all giddy that the radiator overflow bottle rule got removed, (I missed that one, I guess) as certain cars have a big old hole behind it and now it's a nice source of fresh cold air. So some cars gain, others do not. Too late now....

On the wheel/tire thing... yeah, that's an almost impossibly tough sell. Folks have their existing wheels that may or may not be the right size (i.e. ITB/ITC car on 13's). If I *do* ditch my 13's for 15's then I need a Final Drive to get back to being competitive. This is almost exactly what NASA ran into when they went from an "open" tire rule for Honda Challenge to Spec Toyo's back in the day. Folks who were running 13's were stuck bumping to 15's and then needed a Houseman Custom FD for Texa$.

Yes, "we" could point to SCCA's move in Solo/Street to 180/200+ TW tires but that's not going to help how folks react to it at a local/regional level.

[Chip42]

SPU/SPO/ITO in CFR. SPU/O would be the closest thing to a crapcan catchall, though we have just straight placed chumpcars in with IT at CFR and SARRC races, too. I remember a BMW 5 series chumpcar that was stuck in ITA a year or two ago. that didn't go so well.

[webhound]

I have an IT car that I bought cheap. I raced it a few times on the ice, which is mega cheap. I raced it at RA at the Chump, and I autocrossed it a few times. I've been instructing at some track days with it more recently.

It's been a dream of mine since childhood to race in an SCCA club race. With this car and some help from the licensing fairies, I'm almost at that point. BUT, I know for sure I won't be able to do it often, and I for sure can't afford the rcomps that I know are required to be competitive. I have a set of SM6 take offs that I'd use for now to get out there. From there, without another set of take-offs, I'd run on my 180/200tw street tires that I've already used for 14 hours of Chump racing and another 4-8 hours of HPDE.

To be 100% honest about it, if I were out there circulating on these 200tw tires, in a low entry race group, would I be satisfied? I have no idea. In the Chump and on the ice, there was always someone to dice with, or potentially set up for a pass/be passed. If I could dice with a couple guys in a club race while being on my sub-par equipment, maybe I'd be happy with that. If not, and the rest of the field is a lot faster, well, I can be passed by faster cars all day long for free, when I instruct HPDE.

Maybe I'm not really the demo for club racing, being of pretty limited means. But otoh, I do get out there and do other things with my limited motorsport money. AND, that CRX event that Mike cited would be up my alley.

So, IMHO and fwiw, I really do think street tires have a place in some sort of SCCA racing. They definitely last longer than rcomps and are cheaper. Unfortunately, if it's the will of the members, it just has to be done, and there will be lots of hard feelings about it from those that are opposed.

^Christian also makes a good point about the size availability, etc. However, you and I already know that even on 13s, the ITB/C guys have FD swaps already, anyway. Yes, the cars will be worse on the 15s in terms of rollout, but really pretty much all the B/C cars will be in the same boat on that one.

[Chip42]

most B cars are rolling on 14 or 15s these days and have the grunt to make that work, maybe with a final drive. there are some 13" out there but fewer and fewer. the ITC guys run a 13 AND crazy tall final drives, so a switch to a 13"-less option would be a very hard blow to that group.

generally I do agree that SCCA is now lacking a low-cost barrier to competitiveness class. As the "leisure" drives have been largely pushed out by the economy and the past few rounds of safety equipment mandates anyhow, the "cream" as it were is largely what's left. there are some very serious IT cars and a lot less of the old prep cars showing up. End result is that the middle of the pack got more expensive to run with.

"slower", cheaper (to own, build, run) cars on 180tw tires in their own race group with maybe with some relaxed safety requirements (and maybe not) would certainly be attractive to some, but if the class were to get popular you'd just have an analog of IT in the late 90s - pushing into all of the nooks and crannies of the rules and becoming a spending/engineering war all over again. the only way I can think of to keep it cheap is the benevolent dictator, and you will NEVER see that (officially) in SCCA club racing.

[Flyinglizard]

The tire rule helps reduce the cost issue. I had stiff springs and fair shox, removed those and went to cut stockers. Lap speed was the same .
I was pretty sure that CFR had ITO rules but cant seem to find anything .
Maybe we could run there and specify DOT 180TW tires. Start with one class. ITO.


Does SPU and SPO have fuel cell requirements? Most Chumpers run the stock tank.

[lateapex911]

As far as the original Classing question, can you run/do you have an ITX class? ATL Region runs this and there are a couple Chump cars that enter. ITX is a catchall for all cars that have been built to another series' ruleset and have IT required safety elements (cage, seat, net, etc). It could theoretically have SpecE30, Spec944, etc as well as Chump cars populating it.



On the wheel/tire thing... yeah, that's an almost impossibly tough sell. Folks have their existing wheels that may or may not be the right size (i.e. ITB/ITC car on 13's). If I *do* ditch my 13's for 15's then I need a Final Drive to get back to being competitive. This is almost exactly what NASA ran into when they went from an "open" tire rule for Honda Challenge to Spec Toyo's back in the day. Folks who were running 13's were stuck bumping to 15's and then needed a Houseman Custom FD for Texa$.

Yes, "we" could point to SCCA's move in Solo/Street to 180/200+ TW tires but that's not going to help how folks react to it at a local/regional level.

yea, that move has gone very smoothly, don't you think??

[Chip42]

Maybe we could run there and specify DOT 180TW tires. Start with one class. ITO.


Does SPU and SPO have fuel cell requirements? Most Chumpers run the stock tank.

there are SEDIV rules in place for all SARRC events, and CFR has their own as you know. the SEDIV rules list specific cars for ITO, and require IT or GT safety for SP (depending on tub or tube frame car).

http://sedivracing.org/2013SEDivRegionalClassRules.pdf

[Flyinglizard]

Thanks for the link Chip.
Looks as tho the CrapCans cans could fit either ITO or SP. Depending on fuel tank and rear bumper rules , prod allows stock tanks with stock rear bumpers for a lot of cars and up to the tech's discretion. ( Not sure how the Vett is ruled- Hope it needs a cell.)

Have there been any cars in ITO this year? Cant remember seeing any. I will see what that road looks like.
The tire rule could be a handshake thing. IMHO.

Webhound, thanks for your input/thoughts. Guys like yourself are who we are interested in .
MM

[Chip42]

Thanks for the link Chip.
Looks as tho the CrapCans cans could fit either ITO or SP. Depending on fuel tank and rear bumper rules , prod allows stock tanks with stock rear bumpers for a lot of cars and up to the tech's discretion. ( Not sure how the Vett is ruled- Hope it needs a cell.)

Have there been any cars in ITO this year? Cant remember seeing any. I will see what that road looks like.
The tire rule could be a handshake thing. IMHO.

GT or IT rules mike - fuel cells are completely optional in SP in a car that is IT safety compliant. tube cars run cells. I agree that Prod's "inside the frame rails and between the axles" rule is a good one. I haven't seen an ITO car in florida in ages, usually 1 or 2 show up at the arrc. most converted to STO (pretty much a sticker and weight change for most cars on the list).

in a region like ours with its own championship and a good sized group of less than arrc-winning prepped cars, a handshake could be all that is needed to get 5-6 cars each in ITB and A, maybe ITS to try some street tires. most divisions don't have IT numbers like we have in our region, so getting any sort of local accord could be challenging.

I've decided I'll only be running TES/ECR and CFRs for the next year at least, and supporting the rest of TrackSpeed (i.e. the fast guys) in the SARRC. I'm toying with the idea of trying some rivals or ZIIs in this capacity... haven't made the decision between them and a Toyo RR or BFG R1. the SM6/R6 is out - wears too fast for the $$ and I'm not taking full advantage of their capability.

[Xian]

most B cars are rolling on 14 or 15s these days and have the grunt to make that work, maybe with a final drive. there are some 13" out there but fewer and fewer. the ITC guys run a 13 AND crazy tall final drives, so a switch to a 13"-less option would be a very hard blow to that group.

generally I do agree that SCCA is now lacking a low-cost barrier to competitiveness class. As the "leisure" drives have been largely pushed out by the economy and the past few rounds of safety equipment mandates anyhow, the "cream" as it were is largely what's left. there are some very serious IT cars and a lot less of the old prep cars showing up. End result is that the middle of the pack got more expensive to run with.

"slower", cheaper (to own, build, run) cars on 180tw tires in their own race group with maybe with some relaxed safety requirements (and maybe not) would certainly be attractive to some, but if the class were to get popular you'd just have an analog of IT in the late 90s - pushing into all of the nooks and crannies of the rules and becoming a spending/engineering war all over again. the only way I can think of to keep it cheap is the benevolent dictator, and you will NEVER see that (officially) in SCCA club racing.

Yup. Die-hard competition is what drives development and spending. I'm not saying that's a "bad" thing as I'm kinda one of those assholes as well *but* there has to be some level of "gentleman's agreement" not to go nuclear with prep. Getting a car reliable is one thing. Pulling your OTS Bilsteins and testing multiple valving shouldn't be what budget racing is about.

Is there a place for a street tired class? I'd like to think so but the likely first step is getting folks out in a catch-all class in order to show the actual level of interest that exists.

The tire rule helps reduce the cost issue. I had stiff springs and fair shox, removed those and went to cut stockers. Lap speed was the same .
I was pretty sure that CFR had ITO rules but cant seem to find anything .
Maybe we could run there and specify DOT 180TW tires. Start with one class. ITO.


Does SPU and SPO have fuel cell requirements? Most Chumpers run the stock tank.

I've been surprised at how little the current crop of street tires and budget suspension gives up in lap times... mid 2:20's at Daytona is a mid-pack ITA time. I did that in a street tired Chump car that has roughly ITA power to weight.

there are SEDIV rules in place for all SARRC events, and CFR has their own as you know. the SEDIV rules list specific cars for ITO, and require IT or GT safety for SP (depending on tub or tube frame car).

http://sedivracing.org/2013SEDivRegionalClassRules.pdf

ITO seems an awful lot like ITX. Basically a class for cars that were built for another class/series and must meet IT type safety regs.

GT or IT rules mike - fuel cells are completely optional in SP in a car that is IT safety compliant. tube cars run cells. I agree that Prod's "inside the frame rails and between the axles" rule is a good one. I haven't seen an ITO car in florida in ages, usually 1 or 2 show up at the arrc. most converted to STO (pretty much a sticker and weight change for most cars on the list).

in a region like ours with its own championship and a good sized group of less than arrc-winning prepped cars, a handshake could be all that is needed to get 5-6 cars each in ITB and A, maybe ITS to try some street tires. most divisions don't have IT numbers like we have in our region, so getting any sort of local accord could be challenging.

I've decided I'll only be running TES/ECR and CFRs for the next year at least, and supporting the rest of TrackSpeed (i.e. the fast guys) in the SARRC. I'm toying with the idea of trying some rivals or ZIIs in this capacity... haven't made the decision between them and a Toyo RR or BFG R1. the SM6/R6 is out - wears too fast for the $$ and I'm not taking full advantage of their capability.

What size are you looking for? I'd bet that, depending on when you need them, we could track down some take-off's to try out.

[Chip42]

What size are you looking for? I'd bet that, depending on when you need them, we could track down some take-off's to try out.

What's the widest thing that'll fit on a 15x6? 205/50R15 I'm sure will, 225 hoosier fits but I hear the street stuff doesn't like to bow in so much. if you can find some takeoffs I'd definitely run them as a "fact finding" experiment.

[Xian]

What's the widest thing that'll fit on a 15x6? 205/50R15 I'm sure will, 225 hoosier fits but I hear the street stuff doesn't like to bow in so much. if you can find some takeoffs I'd definitely run them as a "fact finding" experiment.

Yep, 205 would probably be a better fit than 225. I'll check/ask around. Worst case scenario is that I should have some used 205/50 Rival's later this year.

[webhound]

I ran 205/50-15 Falken 615Ks on 15X6 Acura wheels at Road Atlanta, then I ran them in the wet at the Glen this summer. They were decent. I then ran Ecsta XS 205s on 15X7s, also at the Glen in the rain, the difference (again rain) was negligible. I'm sure ZIIs on 7s would be faster than 615Ks on 6s, but it won't be gobs of time.

[Xian]

I ran 205/50-15 Falken 615Ks on 15X6 Acura wheels at Road Atlanta, then I ran them in the wet at the Glen this summer. They were decent. I then ran Ecsta XS 205s on 15X7s, also at the Glen in the rain, the difference (again rain) was negligible. I'm sure ZIIs on 7s would be faster than 615Ks on 6s, but it won't be gobs of time.

Depends on what "gobs of time" means to you.

I'd expect the Z2 to be ~1-2 seconds a lap faster than either the 615 or XS. The Rival or RS3 will be another ~0.5-1 second faster than the Z2.