Trying for Nationwide Crap Can class unity

[Spinnetti]

MY videos?? Roughest driving you've seen outside of demo derbies?? MR2 then???Honestly I must be confused. I've never been in an incident where there was a complaint, or was my fault. Not sure on the MR2, never driven one. (did tap one once, when the driver requested me to...)

Toss a link up there.
And for what it's worth, one video of me or whoever doesn't brand the entire 5 region area as rough drivers... well, it shouldn't...

Sorry, my mistake... I thought it was you.... a bunch of videos on Youtube of IT races up there where it was total mayhem. No different than spec miata videos I've seen elsewhere. I guess people don't post their average races anyway!

Sorry for getting you guys all wired up, but the fact remains the SCCA just has too many barriers for the occasional participant. I would love to be able to easily get my IT car back on track (renew licence, get sign off to compete or do more drivers schools, get new medical, blah,blah, blah), but will go race in Chicago this weekend instead in my "Crapcan". I actually had better success in the SCCA (consistent top 5) than in Lemons (more like top 10) If a little luck holds maybe, I can beat all the other SCCA competitors that will be there

[mossaidis]

Too many generalities and no specific evidence... makes my head spin.

[lateapex911]

Sorry, my mistake... I thought it was you.... a bunch of videos on Youtube of IT races up there where it was total mayhem. No different than spec miata videos I've seen elsewhere. I guess people don't post their average races anyway!

OK, so it seems like you are saying that I'm not the guy but the claim that the NE drives like demo derby guys still stands...

Sorry for getting you guys all wired up, but the fact remains the SCCA just has too many barriers for the occasional participant. I would love to be able to easily get my IT car back on track (renew licence, get sign off to compete or do more drivers schools, get new medical, blah,blah, blah), but will go race in Chicago this weekend instead in my "Crapcan". I actually had better success in the SCCA (consistent top 5) than in Lemons (more like top 10) If a little luck holds maybe, I can beat all the other SCCA competitors that will be there

Yea yea... apology sorta accepted, but hey, here's an idea. Why not be specific and you know, back up a claim against a person or a whole region. If you're going to say we IT guys drive like a demo derby up in the North East, then post the videos (you have more than one, I am SURE, correct?) that shows such terrible driving.

OTHERWISE, if you can't actually, you know, prove your claim in even the faintest fashion, then post, "Yea, my bad, I really have formed conclusions and made derogatory claims when I have no concrete proof."

AND, I am sure that, as a man of honor, you won't come back telling us we are taking it too seriously, and that you really don't remember where/when you saw the videos or where they are, but that we should take your word that we drive like idiots.

(Trust me, some of us DO. I'd like to think my record of wins, championships and track records (6, I think) with no driving or mechanical protest ever show that I don't, but, the entire region? I think not. And I am sure ALL regions can say the same thing. Bad apples are in lots of places)

[gran racing]

a bunch of videos on Youtube of IT races up there where it was total mayhem. No different than spec miata videos I've seen elsewhere.

Going to IT and a brief stint in SM and now back to ITA, in the North East no less... It's never the class, it's the drivers in all cases. However I do honestly think that mid pack SM there typically is more contact. My personal reasoning and desire to come back to ITA is there are not as much differences of where the cars make up their time, thus one needs to make bigger chances. In IT, one car might have better speed in one type of section where the other have a better way of making speed in another section. One can wait a bit more.

That said, there are a couple of drivers in the North East in IT who have developed a bit of a reputation. Too bad, but that happens in almost all forms of racing. Saying Jake is a rough driver; well it's evident you don't know him well. He's to the extreme where I think if he did make a mistake and took someone out, he'd be the first person going to the driver and working on the car to make it right.

[JLawton]

Back in the early to mid 2000's, IT in the Northeast was absolutely crazy. We did have a well deserved reputation.............. You guys remember the wreck on the start of one of the Memorial Day races?? NASCAR style!!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIWrSsx53S8[/ame]



But it has changed big time.

[MMiskoe]

Most crap can guys have at least 10hrs of track time after the 3rd race. These guys are not stupid . Many do plenty of test days, track days and have a team coach. ( we do)
They spend a lot of money to race. Lots More than SCCA regional racers.
Typical 14 hr budget is 4000- 7000$

This is an interesting comment. If you're going to spend that kind of money & effort, why wouldn't you go to a series that has a steady rule book and therefore a more level playing field? I can't say for Chump, I've not raced there, but for Lemons, it is a damn free for all. You might as well go out and race ITE (at least in the northeast) where you win with cubic dollars. Bla bla $500 value bla bla. I've looked that top cars at the end of a few Lemons races, pretty hard to say that you could replicate them for $500 each. I have a hunch that the original intent of crap can racing did not include test days and driving coaches. I've done 12 hour races in IT or SM for under $6k, sometimes even less than $5k.

[Flyinglizard]

First, It seems as tho the perception of SCCA has been , "not good". Too much hassle ,etc. Well founded in the past for sure. That perception is going to be very hard to change. I'm trying.

At the races last weekend... I'm 56 yrs old and on the younger end of our age spectrum.

The SCCA has no visibility. We are a bunch of old codgers driving old cars. In secret.

Too many classes and not enough track time is another perception. also well founded.





Many Chump teams are guys from the oval tracks that found out about Chump, built a car and went racing.That simple.

Many are BMWCCA guys that did the same.

"Chin" drivers,same . No hassle racing.

Lots of SCCA IT cars with EX-SCCA drivers.


It does not seem to be a money thing at all. I have really well funded drivers from all series run my cars, Nascar, WC/IMSA. PBOC. The drivers just want to write a check and have at it. The cost per hr is only a little less than SCCA.
The Chump race started 123 cars at Daytona lass week. Lots of good racing. ( @ $1000 per entry)

What can we offer these teams?

The new CRX deal may help attract some divers.
Who knows about it?? Not many. SCCA really needs a new promo person/persons. We do crap promoting. I love the SCCA guide that was the "Sportscar" a few months ago. Why would SCCA send this to the membership?? Stupid. Send it to the Chumpcar teams and other non members.


Night races on most track will sell very well. But for now. if we just have a class that allows these cars to come and play we should all be better off.
ITE, ITO, SPU, SPO, all are options in the SE as far as I can tell.
It looks as tho 2014 may have some class coverage in SCCA. Maybe the 3 ITB and 3 ITC , and 2 HP cars will come and race the crap can class.
The 180 TW tires last 20 hrs or more on the little cars.
Later, MM

[Dano77]

I want the $500 BMW M3 that Turner Motorsports had at the LeMons race last October. How do we get that one.

As for the contact in the early 2000's Yeah we were a little crazy back then. But look at the size of the field. and NO Miatas double dipping into the race, no IT7 yet. All straight up ITA cars.

Dan

[Chip42]

I think the draw has more to do with the free for all and track time, as well as the novelty of having a cut off roof, basically open aero, ugly paint, missing windows, themes, etc... SCCA and to a great extent NASA have developed paradigms and crapcans let you spit in the face of those. also, having a single run group definitely minimizes the time sitting in the paddock.

we can learn from this, but trying to do the same thing, better, is not the right approach, IMHO. finding what the compelling aspects of both CC and SCCA (or NASA) are and a way to merge them is the way to go. the end result should look unique, if you know what you are looking at. much of the final package should consist of event organization and conduct rules more than vehicle regs. As has already been noted, the chumpers are cheaper they just look like it. the visuals are definitely a part of the appeal, but they aren't the whole package by a long shot.

and to MM's organizational structure - don't single out VTEC Hondas, most, like the D16Y8, K24A4, etc... are economy systems that switch between a strong low end and efficient higher end cam, while the others, like the B16A/17/18C5 and K20Z3 are a streetable cam with a high end "race" cam on the VTEC side. some V6's just have cylinder deactivation and are called "VTEC" but are big enough to move up to the higher classes anyhow. point is, lumping them all together is ignorant and will end up pushing some good, cheap, fun cars out.

[Flyinglizard]

Straight crossover of Chumpcars to SCCA is the ideal. Not anything unique to either. Hassle free racing is why Chump and lemons is kicking SCCAass.
I'll skip the discussion for the Vtec ignorance thing.
MM

[gran racing]

With Chump's growing popularity, things are a changing. I'm completely amazed with the growing number of supposidly $500 cars in the field. As this continues, it'll be interesting to see how the perception of Chump and LeMons adjusts as well.

[Ron Earp]

I suspect you'll have a more informative discussion on this topic if you posted it on another forum....can't mention that forum though. The other forum has a lot of Chump/Lemons/SCCA/NASA racers who are very knowledgeable.

We've been considering a Chump build capitalizing on our ITS Mustang development. Lemons though, that series has no allure at all. I'm not bolting a shark on my roof, putting on a dress, or any of the other sorts shenanigans things I've read about in the Lemon events.

$500 Chump cars though? Come on now, I was born at night, but not last night. Most of those cars are worth way more than $500, safety equipment excluded. Bring all the receipts and Craigslist ads you want, and yeah, I know enough HTML to duplicate that too.

[Flyinglizard]

The values are based upon a points style value. Not actual value. yet.
Shox are 15$ per, not actual value
Headers are 50$ not 350,
etc.
My team's chump budget and car value is more than the prod car.

[Ron Earp]

The values are based upon a points style value. Not actual value. yet.
Shox are 15$ per, not actual value
Headers are 50$ not 350,
etc.
My team's chump budget and car value is more than the prod car.

$350 header? For $350 in materials you won't get a header that extracts every last bit of power from the engine even if you build it yourself. But, in this case I'm thinking like IT where you've got to be extremely precise about details to extract every last 1/2% so you can maximize your effort.

[StephenB]

From knowing people that participate that don't "race" all summer long they seem to be attracted for a few simple reasons.

They don't have to worry about rules and they don't need to spend extra money just to be compliant instead they can just do whatever and worry about penalty points later. People like being creative. Hmmm what can we create that will get everyone's attention....

Track time.... lack of track time equals down time. Like someone else mentioned. 1 race 1 show. Your involved all day long

The team aspect of it. Not an individual running that needs a support team to crew, in chump and lemons everyone gets a turn on track.

Commitment... Lots of weekends with scca. Not just 1 or 2 weekends of travel to a track per year.

Oh did you see that lemons thing on the news! That looks fun... we should make a team and go do that...

[Flyinglizard]

Winning is easy;
All that you need is; lap times right around SM
2hrs of fuel,with drivers that can put down clean laps for 2hrs.
4:50 pit stops
No offs
No black flags for contact
No failures of any kind

The top 4 will not have any down time(laps last year @ Sebring were 2:40 all day long)
The top 50 will have minimal off time

[Xian]

The reality. Many of the drivers are the same, SCCA& crapcan.
The crap can rules are "no contact" . Often both cars are black flagged. The CC cars have a larger straightline speed variance. Result is less contact than SCCA.
I have had no contact in CC racing and some in fresh SCCA racers.


I have very little contact in all of my cars.( 2 chump, 2 SCCA) I have a 100$ scuff rule. Any scuff is 100$, no questions asked. In addition to the crash out cost/value.

SCCA has lots of crappy drivers. Many would not get through the "Chin solo sign off". Many would not get through the "NASA ladder system."
SCCA also has some of the best drivers.

I have had 2 SCCA rentals in the last year, that the drivers had never raced SCCA before.( Open wheel race school X2 ). One driver came to the track without any H&N. They sucked as drivers . Nice guys tho.
Big picture is that SCCA and Crapcan produce similar results in the quality of fresh drivers. One upside of CC is that the team has 4 drivers and they use lots of data/video to self coach.

Most crap can guys have at least 10hrs of track time after the 3rd race. These guys are not stupid . Many do plenty of test days, track days and have a team coach. ( we do)
They spend a lot of money to race. Lots More than SCCA regional racers.
Typical 14 hr budget is 4000- 7000$
Crap can teams will look for SCCA for cheap track time , fun racing and new venues. If the opportunity exist.IMHO.

LeMons seems to be much more vehement about black flagging for contact. Chump may do it but I haven't personally seen/heard it at either of the races I've been to (VIR24 and Daytona 14).

Agreed that there's a ton of crossover... most of what I've seen is SCCA guys looking for a "more fun and relaxed weekend with gobs of track time". There are some Chump guys coming to SCCA for sprint stuff but it's not very cost effective compared to Chump Enduros. Primarily b/c the per driver entry cost with SCCA is a *bunch* higher and the cost to tow is the same regardless of the race length/# of drivers. Yes, there's incremental consumable cost savings but SCCA is still more expensive than Chump... the only way to "fix" that problem is for SCCA to start offering considerably longer enduro's on a regular basis (and that's unlikely to happen).

As far as weekend cost, there' are undoubtedly folks forking out $4-$7k for a weekend but that's much higher than what I've seen to be the actual cost to run a small car (Honda/Mazda/etc). A 14 hour race means half a set of tires, a set of pads, a post-race fluid change, and a bunch of gas. Budget in some additional $$ for food, drinks, periodic maintenance items and you're around ~$3200 total including entry fee *and* fuel for a 7 hour tow. No, this isn't placing a dollar value on car maintenance labor. Pulling that rabbit out of the hat is pretty retarded for crapcan racing, IMO.

As far as the smaller cars not being competitive... meh. Is it AS easy to win in a small car? Hell no. Can you finish well in one? Of course. It *does* need to be a pretty flawless race though... we managed a 6th place finish at Daytona and were under a minute out of 5th place. In a low HP crapcan. Hell, I was turning 2:25's on street tires in something that has roughly the power to weight of a mid-pack ITA car.

Straight crossover of Chumpcars to SCCA is the ideal. Not anything unique to either. Hassle free racing is why Chump and lemons is kicking SCCAass.
I'll skip the discussion for the Vtec ignorance thing.
MM

As I mentioned, I doubt seriously that the cars will show up at SCCA in any significant quantity. There's no "divide by 4" advantage while many of the costs are fixed (entry, tow).

With Chump's growing popularity, things are a changing. I'm completely amazed with the growing number of supposidly $500 cars in the field. As this continues, it'll be interesting to see how the perception of Chump and LeMons adjusts as well.

Yep, how Chump reacts (or doesn't) to the escalating speed and level of builds will determine how things sort out. I expect at some point that Chump will break the cars up into displacement based classes but that's just a WAG on my part.

[Spinnetti]

From knowing people that participate that don't "race" all summer long they seem to be attracted for a few simple reasons.

They don't have to worry about rules and they don't need to spend extra money just to be compliant instead they can just do whatever and worry about penalty points later. People like being creative. Hmmm what can we create that will get everyone's attention....

Track time.... lack of track time equals down time. Like someone else mentioned. 1 race 1 show. Your involved all day long

The team aspect of it. Not an individual running that needs a support team to crew, in chump and lemons everyone gets a turn on track.

Commitment... Lots of weekends with scca. Not just 1 or 2 weekends of travel to a track per year.

Oh did you see that lemons thing on the news! That looks fun... we should make a team and go do that...

Ah, finally somebody that understands. I have fun with my friends, and last weekend got about 8hrs of seat time which is plenty for me. I had a wild idea... How about a v8 luxury sedan with a 3 speed +OD tranny and ostensibly NO chance of winning? Got it for $350 from the repo man, put $60 set of steel suspension from the junkyard (replacing the blown air suspension) a $21 "fan" belt, and I have a nice running, driving 253k mile Lexus LS400 for $431, less $120 I sold for 3 cats, steel and aluminum for $311 net cost for the car. In lemons, brakes, tires, wheels and safety gear is "free".... All told including a proper cage, new race seat, belts, fire bottle, kill switch, racing brakes, tires, race wheels, Trans cooler etc, I've got around $4,500 in it, but I built WHAT I wanted, and exactly HOW I wanted it and have beat the tar out of it for over 100hrs without fault (until I holed the radiator this last weekend). Our car is a hog and costs about $3,000 a weekend to run including the tow and renting a trailer. I've also run in the top pack in a terrible neon and a worse old 90hp Celica, so anything is possible. Bring a SM or ITA car out on 200 treadwwear tires and see if you can catch me for less money Where else are you going to see a Camaro, a Neon and a Lexus all in the money for a heads up win? Its made me questions the micron level rules set of SCCA for sure.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/lemons-...tros-skirmish/

[lateapex911]

. Bring a SM or ITA car out on 200 treadwwear tires and see if you can catch me for less money Where else are you going to see a Camaro, a Neon and a Lexus all in the money for a heads up win? Its made me questions the micron level rules set of SCCA for sure.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/lemons-...tros-skirmish/

How is racing a 300hp car against a 120hp "heads up"?

[Spinnetti]

How is racing a 300hp car against a 120hp "heads up"?

Well, it only made 250hp new, maybe under 200 now, but regardless, I got beat by that 120hp neon based on fuel economy... he ran 70% the pace and 150+% the fuel endurance.... great fun! I know you are simply defending your "turf", and my comments aren't meant to detract, only to get some of you guys to open your eyes a bit and stop being so insular. I've had my IT car since 1992 and loved racing it, but for the occasional race, there's just too much overhead. Don't you want more participation? More competitors? More FUN?