Trying for Nationwide Crap Can class unity

[Ron Earp]

Sure, decent means lots of different things.

Knowing what I know now, I'm confident I can build a very good LeChump Mustang for under $7k, but, what I know now came at a heavy price over the last couple of years. I'm sure Steve E could bust out a RX7 LeChump for reasonable money, as could many other racers build a pared down version of their IT car. Granted, the IT version is ultimately more expensive, but for even $7k to $10k I could have an IT car that would be podium capable.

From what I understand the time and money just isn't that much different, certainly not orders of magnitude different.

[Flyinglizard]

Pretty clear that Chump will not have any classes for the endurance races.
SCCAhas a small window of opportunity to gain a few racers that run the real 500$ small engined cars. Miata 1.6 and slower.

[Xian]

Sure, decent means lots of different things.

Knowing what I know now, I'm confident I can build a very good LeChump Mustang for under $7k, but, what I know now came at a heavy price over the last couple of years. I'm sure Steve E could bust out a RX7 LeChump for reasonable money, as could many other racers build a pared down version of their IT car. Granted, the IT version is ultimately more expensive, but for even $7k to $10k I could have an IT car that would be podium capable.

From what I understand the time and money just isn't that much different, certainly not orders of magnitude different.

AEM/Motec ECU- ~$2k vs. a $25 ebay chip
Customer burns header ~$1500 vs. ebay/CL @ $100
Custom valved DA shocks ~$4k vs. Bilsteins @$400

My point above is that pointy end of the field in Chump is relatively cheaper than IT. And by a bunch of cash when you're talking apples:apples point end of the grid cars. Remember, mid-pack in IT means finishing 3rd-5th (most regions would be thrilled to have 10 IT cars in a class). Mid-pack in Chump means finishing ~50-60th. Building a Top-10 Chump car means that you're in the top 8-10% of the finishers. The top 8-10% in IT means that you're 1st or 2nd.

Could I build a mid-pack IT car for $7k? Probably but it'd be tight... and with R-comp loads, stock brake temps, the higher spring rates I'd need for the tires... I'd also expect to start having bearings/hubs/ball-joints dying on me. That same $$ would get you a top-10 Chump car with a lower failure rate and more of the budget to go toward preventative maintenance.

[StephenB]

The chump you guys are explaining was IT 15yrs ago...

Just sayin.

[Dano77]

The chump you guys are explaining was IT 15yrs ago...

Or IT7 now.


Also just sayin'

[Xian]

The chump you guys are explaining was IT 15yrs ago...

Just sayin.

Bingo. Agreed eleventy seven brazillion percent. I've heard (and said) the same thing in IT and Chump paddocks.

I'm sure folks will threaten to crucify me for it but, in the long term, a readjustment to the IT tire rules would go a long way toward reigning in some of the advantage that high dollar suspension parts yield. It still wouldn't address the underlying "problem" behind the IT full-tilt build mentality.

[lateapex911]

It's the usual cycle, Christian. Neat category/series gets invented, seems to offer fun times, good racing, for reasonable money.
It then attracts lots of folks. Gets popular. Which attracts more people who look at it and think, "Hmm, looks like I could afford a solid well built car that can win there", and they spend a bit more...and win. Rinse, repeat. Over and over. The rules get parsed and new rules are written but often it's too late, reservoir shocks are out of the barn.

Average Joes see how much it costs to play in the sandbox, and look elsewhere.

they find a shiny new playground and everybody rushes there. Then somebody decides they have the budget to get serious, and away we go.

To ITs defense, its lasted a loooooong time.

True and good point about the tires, BUT, that ship pretty much sailed in the early 90's.
I remember making a comment yeeeears ago about how I wished the Hoosier factory would burn down and we'd all be forced to run on street tires. Man did THAT comment land me some shit! Obviously i wasns't serious, but some folks took me to task, .

But yea, if Star Specs (or whatever) had existed back then and we had a crystal ball, it might have been an interesting experiment to limit R-comps.

When I finally got my wheels/tire 'quiver' close to where I wanted it this is what I had mounted at all times:
-a set of fresh low cycle (under 4) R comps (Hoosier)
-a set of fresh A compounds for qualifying and cold conditions
-a set of Dirt Stockers for slime and wet.
-a set of 4-12 cycle "practice' and test tires.

Lacking: a set of soft intermediates.

That would be FIVE sets. With a tire rule, we could eliminate 3 or 4 of those. Thats some serious $$ savings.

[Flyinglizard]

Tires; 1) Are the reason I run the VWs in prod(ITB spec cars). I can buy Ebay slicks for 100$ /4.

2) The 180TW tires last pretty well and are racey enough.

3) my rule set allows the IT spec cars to run with the 180TW tires

4) notice No rim sizes - just tire sizes, this allows more cars to run together regardless of IT specs.

*** Last. If this may be a provisional 2014 rule set, I will sign my Turbo Jett Chumper up for the Grassroots Challenge with the SCCA Class tags on it***( CrapCan-AM, "CCAM")

How can we make this happen?

[Flyinglizard]

http://neohio-scca.org/wp-content/up...Experience.pdf

NEOhio is running the CRX with crap can regs. Cant really see the price, but one guy said, 100$ for all 5 sessions. I think that SCCA racers should be allowed to run also, but if they get enough, all is good.

Big step for easy entry to SCCA.

[webhound]

I can buy Ebay slicks for 100$ /4.

Linky?

[Bill Miller]

Bingo. Agreed eleventy seven brazillion percent. I've heard (and said) the same thing in IT and Chump paddocks.

I'm sure folks will threaten to crucify me for it but, in the long term, a readjustment to the IT tire rules would go a long way toward reigning in some of the advantage that high dollar suspension parts yield. It still wouldn't address the underlying "problem" behind the IT full-tilt build mentality.

And what exactly do you see as this 'problem'? Most racers are Type A personality people. Highly competitive, and want to win. It doesn't matter what kind of racing series you have, you will always have people that will spend whatever it takes to build to the limit of the rules. That's just how a lot of racers are wired.

Chump will eventually be no different, it just hasn't gotten there yet. Comments like "it's still fun", "lots of low-hanging fruit", "it's what IT was 15 years ago", etc. reinforce that. The more people get interested, the more it will attract those w/ the 'spend whatever it takes' mentality. It may be relatively inexpensive now, and lots of fun, but if you think the dollars won't eventually come in and up the game for everybody, you haven't been around very long.

I bet there are quite a few people here that either knew of, or were one of, the folks that drove their IT cars to the track. The last guy I knew that did this was Kirk, when he drove Pablo home to NC after the 12-hour at Summit Point in '05 (I think). And even then, he was an anomaly. Heck, I remember when enclosed trailers at a Regional race were an anomaly. Those days are long gone.

[Xian]

And what exactly do you see as this 'problem'? Most racers are Type A personality people. Highly competitive, and want to win. It doesn't matter what kind of racing series you have, you will always have people that will spend whatever it takes to build to the limit of the rules. That's just how a lot of racers are wired.

Chump will eventually be no different, it just hasn't gotten there yet. Comments like "it's still fun", "lots of low-hanging fruit", "it's what IT was 15 years ago", etc. reinforce that. The more people get interested, the more it will attract those w/ the 'spend whatever it takes' mentality. It may be relatively inexpensive now, and lots of fun, but if you think the dollars won't eventually come in and up the game for everybody, you haven't been around very long.

I bet there are quite a few people here that either knew of, or were one of, the folks that drove their IT cars to the track. The last guy I knew that did this was Kirk, when he drove Pablo home to NC after the 12-hour at Summit Point in '05 (I think). And even then, he was an anomaly. Heck, I remember when enclosed trailers at a Regional race were an anomaly. Those days are long gone.

I'm well aware of the life cycle of "cheap racing"... I've been as much a part of the problem as the solution. I'd like to think that I've wised up and that I've got a more healthy perspective on racing now. I 100% understand and agree that's you can't (edit: accidentally typed "can") easily use rules to limit spending but, to some degree, you can use them to limit the advantage of spending cubic dollars.

I remember back with Dr K would drive is car to the track... the only other person I know who does it is Kai with his ITS Civic.

Chump spending will absolutely increase... but the street tires limit the gains of what you can do with the suspension. The rules discourage "obvious" cheats. The format encourages consistency and reliability over outright speed. The rules allow you to reduce consumables costs. Because of these things, I doubt it will get as expensive to run at the front as IT is.

[lateapex911]

Good points on the labor factor Christian. Of course car choice is massively important in that respect. As you point out, you can burn some cars down with IT level mods, but others will hum all day long. Tire allowance is certainly an area where massive spending could be controlled...to a degree. But jamming that genie back in the bottle, wow, thats tough.
I had as you might remember, amassed, after years of 'collecting', 5 sets of wheels and had 4 different types of tires mounted at all times. Lots of guys do, and to change tire rules means tehy now have a huge obsolete collection.

Another reason that rules should be examined carefully before they are changed. Once allowed, there's not much turning back.

I know guys who are all giddy that the radiator overflow bottle rule got removed, (I missed that one, I guess) as certain cars have a big old hole behind it and now it's a nice source of fresh cold air. So some cars gain, others do not. Too late now....