Trying for Nationwide Crap Can class unity

[Flyinglizard]

SCCA is running the "Crapcans" under some ITJ rules. Before it gets too far. I have some guidelines based upon performance of the actual cars running in Chumpcar. This a one post on the Chumpcar forum,.

I have sent the rules, along with classes recommendations, to a few RE.
I have the 2.3 and under class as CCU- Includes the Ford Mustangs.
I wanted the 2.4 litre Nissan in the CCO class(2.4 - 3.1)6 Cyl- E 30,
Anything over 3.1, or a non stock power train,( swapped ,boosted etc ) is in CCX.
All 6 cyl E 36

I have also been trying to get the Chumpcar experience counted for at least one race school and maybe both. That is done on a one to one basis and needs some references . I have no trouble giving a solid reference for anyone that we have raced with in the SE. The SCCA racers that run with us may also.
I will not give a good reference for any driver that moves off line for a passing car, as that is unpredictable and unsafe. Taking a corner deep and giving up the apex with a point is fine.

The easier the cross over for the car and racers is good for the racers. The track time /cost will get more competitive as more groups try for the smaller amount of cash still left in our pockets . The sanctions that treats the customers the best will survive. That includes listening to bitchin and new ideas. Absurd aint it.

PS the safety values are a little higher than IT rules. Pretty much, any tubing inside the firewalls is legal. Sill tabs, A pillar tabs, are encouraged. Chumpcar still allows 1 PS door bar tho, for some reason. Against my recommendation.
No tubing past the wheel hubs either end, except for the little Hondas with no other room. This is to maintain the stock crush zones. Fire systems are mandated for 2014 .
Most of the cars run the stock fuel tank. I like a cell for any car with the stock tank within 20in of the rear bumper. But the rules dont specify that .MM

[Z3_GoCar]

The E-36 came with a 1.9l (CCU), a 2.5/2.8L (CCO) and the first year M3 was a 3.0L(CCO), the only E-36 that falls in CCX is the 96 and later M3's and they won't be competitive with anything with a LS-x.

[Flyinglizard]

Thanks. The E 30- 6 runs CCO, the E36-6 runs CCX.
The M44 and 42 cars are slow enough to run the CC class. Turn in nice tho.
Each class should also have a tire max, but Chump does not. maybe CCU 225, CCo, 245, CCX 275.
The Demoines region shows to have the ITJ and does Portland . But both websites are a little poor as far as finding any rules.

[JS154]

Thanks. The E 30- 6 runs CCO, the E36-6 runs CCX.
The M44 and 42 cars are slow enough to run the CC class. Turn in nice tho.
Each class should also have a tire max, but Chump does not. maybe CCU 225, CCo, 245, CCX 275.
The Demoines region shows to have the ITJ and does Portland . But both websites are a little poor as far as finding any rules.

It's crapcan as whole - call it ITJ and be done with it, don't overcomplicate it. Performance capabilites and crapcan shouldn't be in the same paragraph. besides, the idea is to give the drivers a place to run, it's not about the cars.

[Flyinglizard]

Chumpcar's lack of performance rules and car rules are why some of those teams are interested in SCCA.
Chumpcar came to start as a result of SCCA rules and regs, along with track time cost .( as well as down time over the weekend for 2hr of track time.This last part we will need to address in the future ).

So to address this large market ,we should address the shortcomings of Chump. ( AS chump has addressed the shortcomings of SCCA. )

1) Lack of classes, along with allowing the E 30 and 36 to race heads up with the little real 500$ cars .
The above classes address much of that. One class will not work for any long term . The little cars will stay home, as they are doing now in Chump.

2)lack of tire size rule, same result , big power can be applied .

There is a market for these cars with some loose rules to have a good time in SCCA.

They spend a lot of money to run Chump. Many teams would have a few races with SCCA. Many SCCA cars can run Chump also..

[MMiskoe]

I have also been trying to get the Chumpcar experience counted for at least one race school and maybe both

Are you fucking high? Sorry, that might be a bit harsh, but it was my first reaction.

I tell people how great crap can racing is. I also tell them that all you need in order to go racing is to be able to walk up to the table w/ not too much assistance, show a drivers license that has a picture that you resemble and most importantly, kick over 50 bucks.

I don't mind racing against people who bought a license this way, but only when I'm driving another crap can car. I can't say I'm excited about going out to start a sprint race, or a long endurance race knowing that the guy next to me, or in front of me, has had exactly zero race starts to his/her credit. Remember that an SCCA license (or novice permit) allows you to go race anything from ITC to Formula Atlantic. A crap-can license allows you to drive a crap-can. They are slow, so it is easier to deal w/ poor driving.

The last Lemons race I did the car got hit at least 3 times in manners that were pretty unlikely to happen w/ people who had some track experience (always people coming in from way outside w/o looking to see that there was someone inside of them). We got sent home for too many trips to the penalty box that day yet we were the hit-ees. If that kind of driving starts happening at IT races, I'll move on to other things.

Do I sound pretty arrogant and elitist? I'm sure I do. But I doubt I'm alone.

The Idea of having nation wide rules stability is great. More cars means more competition. That is great. I don't see that there is much parity in crap-can these days. Anything we can do to get more people to show up w/ cars to race is a good thing. But I'm (obviously) leery of the licensing thing.

[ShelbyRacer]

I have also been trying to get the Chumpcar experience counted for at least one race school and maybe both. That is done on a one to one basis and needs some references . I have no trouble giving a solid reference for anyone that we have raced with in the SE. The SCCA racers that run with us may also.
I will not give a good reference for any driver that moves off line for a passing car, as that is unpredictable and unsafe. Taking a corner deep and giving up the apex with a point is fine.

Remember that we already have provisions in place that allow the race school officials to waive a second school for reasons such as "prior racing experience". I don't think there's a need to give someone the automatic expectation that they'll be waivered in.

Your proposed automatic waiving of schools:
Driver comes in expecting to be waivered. "Goes thru the motions" during the school, as he/she knows it's just a formality. If they then perform poorly (due to lack of skill, or simply attitude and not taking it seriously), the school has two choices- pass the driver and hope for the best, or recommend a second school and piss that driver off to no end. If, during the school, they are "counseled" by instructors, it's not likely to be taken well, since they feel they'll just deal with this crap and let us collect our money to license them.

Current system:
We make it known that prior racing experience can be used as a basis for a waiver request. Those who come, bring the idea (hopefully) that they need to be at the top of their game, so that the waiver can be "earned". In the event of a driver who doesn't demonstrate competency, we suggest that they take another school. Sure, there may be hard feelings, but the driver should not feel he/she had anything taken away that they were "promised".

It isn't a perfect system, but I think the difference in tone is a major point in favor of the current setup. Also, having seen the level of student turned out by the commercial schools in the last year or three, I'm frustrated by the fact that our allowances have tied our hands in situations where someone is not track-ready.

We just need consistency in the administration of the waiver system, so that one area doesn't become the "easy pass", while another takes the stance of "we don't grant waivers at all."

[Flyinglizard]

Looks like the classes will also carry a tire size rule with the provision that some teams are over on tires and they may run in the next class. CCX will not have a max tire size.
All tires are treadwear 180 or higher. The top running cars are very well done and well driven. Lack of aero rules make for some nice splitters and wings, cut roofs etc.
The lap times are near SM and the top cars are ITR classed or near.
Many Chump teams will use the SCCA PDX,TT days as test days and driver coaching days. AS they do now. FWIW "Chin" gets around 4-5 Chumpcars each event. SCCA could benefit from the inclusion also,. both in the TT groups and race groups. Most Chump teams have at least one EX SCCA racer among them. WE want the EX part fixed..

SCCA has provisions to take these drivers with experience and hand them a novice permit, as it should be. Many have more track time and WTW time in 2 races as most SCCA drivers get n 4 yrs. 4- 8 hr per weekend is not unheard of. The new CRX thing is addressed to these drivers, and TT/race drivers from other sanctions.
The license thing is not my issue , as SCCA has moved to ease the deal anyway.

I will have a "final" provisional rule set in the next week and send it out to the regions, (post national lookssee.) Afew regions have said that they must go to the CRB first , but I dont read the GCR that way. Other than a few safety points, National has no interest or business in this mess.
We all want safety first of course.

[Flyinglizard]

Crap can rules, R5/13
The intent of these rule guidelines; Allow crapcans to cross over to SCCA with little hassle. The basic car should be able to be purchased for around 1000$
AS long as the car is deemed "safe" they should have a class under these rules. The Normal IT safety rules apply, master switch, brake lights. Most "crapcan" master switches are placed within driver reach, in the center of the car.
Three classes addresses one of the few shortcomings of Chumpcar,IMHO. A stable class structure may slow the speed creep and allow a car to remain competitive for more than a couple of years .
SCCA IT cars are legal and may run with the spec tires,@ IT weight.
Stock throttle body Production cars may be legal, with the spec tires, @ Prod weight..

CCU; 2.3 and under class , 225 max tire width

CCO; class(2.4 - 3.1) E 30 BMW -6 cyl , Honda products with V tec . E 30 must be stock and uncut.
245 max tire width

CrapCan-AM; Anything over 3.1, or a non stock power train,( swapped ,boosted etc )
All 6 cyl E 36. E 36 must be stock and uncut. No max tire size.

Non stock throttle body area; = 1 class bump

Any brakes within 1 in. OD of stock.

All tires; tread wear rating of 180 or higher. Any wheels.

IT fire bottle rules.

Stock tank or fuel cell allowed.
Fuel cell required if tank is less than 20in from rear bumper, IE; BMW 2002, C4 Corvette, etc.

IT cage rules are the minimum. Production Car cage rules encouraged. Any tubing allowed between the front and rear fire walls. Attachment to the sill/rockers are encouraged. Driver side wheel house bar recommended.

No tubing past the wheel hubs.
Some exceptions will occur, small short cars like the Honda, Miata, where the rear stays must go past the wheel hubs.

Open cars; must use arm restraints or some form of roof panel. Cars with no windshield, must use arm restraints.
Driver door must have window net.

Aero; unrestricted. Must be well attached.
3 in ground clearance rule, (includes all aero panels.)

Bodywork; Hood may be gutted and vented but must remain.
Interior Body panels may be lightened.
Trunks, hatches, roofs, may be removed or gutted.
Fenders , doors, rear quarter panels, may be modified but must remain.
Exterior driver door panels may be rolled down.
Glass may be removed. "Lexan" may be used throughout. GCR, Productions sizes.
Anything that can be removed per normal "Crapcan rules" , may be removed. (Everything).
Battery placement is open. must be safe secure and covered.

Nothing is cast in stone. Please reply with suggestions to improve these. And or oversight.
Thanks, Mike Ogren, [email protected]

[evanwebb]

Mike those rules are about 10% the size of the Chumpcar rules. It's very open and permissive, I think people could build some insane cars and meet these rules, and CrapCan-Am could be the fastest class in the SCCA. Is that really what is intended?

[Flyinglizard]

Evan, you're right. The E 36 must be uncut and stock throughout. The E30 must be stock and uncut.
The Chump rules have been weak at best. The E36 is the new standard. The Miata was the standard at the start.
We now have 30-40% of the cars are BMW. 80% of the podium cars are BMW.
Chump has 2 -3 swapped V6 MR2 second gen. rocket fast.
Saab 9-3 and 9-5 turbo.
Mercedes 2.5- 3.2 4 valve
Nissan Z32 roadster
The "Riley" team Mazda V6 roadster
Swapped Honda frankencars
Turbo VWs and Hondas
V8 RX7
Lexus V8
BMW E 30 swapped with M50
A few Chevy V8 Malibu ,Camaro, a couple of C4 Vetts.
Plenty of Mustangs V8s.
The cars are fast, the rules weak.

The never ending speed increase is why we have some interest for SCCA events with some sort of speed cap and classes. A good ITB car was top 5 on lap times where now it is bottom 30%lap times.

The Chump brake rule is 2X stock value. Really no rule at all. BMW calipers are more than Wilwood. The 1 in allows the same brakes with a hard number.

The other small SCCA conflict is the ERW cages that many Chump cars have. Most cage kits for RR or stock cars are ERW. Thus many early Chumpers are ERW tubing. Many "Autopower" cages are also ERW unless you get the upgrade. Chump allows a single pas door bar on paper, but I have never seen any.
Thanks for the input. MM

[Drew M]

I have also been trying to get the Chumpcar experience counted for at least one race school and maybe both.

Putting someone on track who has no real teaching on how to drive in traffic, etc with club racers puts everyone and their cars at risk. However, as much as I hate this idea, it's not like the SCCA schools are a 4-year college type of program. As long as you don't have car troubles, or contact another car on track, you'll get signed off. Some are not much more than a streetcar track day with more relaxed passing rules. (That's not a jab at anyone in this discussion. I've had a few of you as instructors, and you're all very good.)