Seats

[Ed Funk]

Why should I get/not get an aluminum full containment seat?

[Greg Amy]

Sure to start an Internet debate, but I don't like those because there's no "give". Any hits will be transmitted directly to the driver, subject to how loose you sit in the seat and what kind of padding you have in there.

FIA-cert seats, on the other hand, are intentionally designed with some flex to absorb shock while retaining their strength. And SCCA does not require them to have seat back braces, which both restrict the seat "give" and if implemented poorly can present increased danger by themselves.

- GA

[Harvey]

Call up Butler and talk to them. I have been using their seats since the early 90's and love them. The aluminum is designed to give with you on impact to absorb the energy in a really BAD shunt. I have seen a good friends and it wasn't pretty but it most certainly did its job well and saved his butt.

I just bought and installed a new containment seat from them for my Integra that I am building and the only problem that I am having right now is I have lost quite a bit of weight since I was fitted and it is a little loose so once the car is finished into a roller I am going to stop by Butler and let them see what they think.

[timo944]

What do the NASCAR guys use? Butler. While I agree with Greg's concerns, I also look at the guys running 200mph into the wall and what they do.

I have seen Aluminum do terrible things, folding over backwards below the shoulers. I guess the seat back brace was positioned too low. It was a low end Kirkey with little support on the top side.

So - get a quality seat and install it properly. Fiberglass or Aluminum the rules are the same.

[Chip42]

Neither is better, though for a given application one might be. A good Aluminum seat is fine. it's the economy type of seat where it's basially you and some 18Ga Aluminum sheet held in with some pop rivets and a harness that are a problem.

When it comes right down to it, if you are an odd shape and don't fit well into an FIA seat, get a good ally one from one of the known manufacturers (buttler, Lajoie, ultra-shield). if you fit an FIA well, it's probably a push as to price and safety AT THE CONTAINMENT LEVEL, so get what you prefer. If you can't afford a good alluminum containment seat, get one of the newer budget 8855-1999 FIA seats with wings, like a OMP RS-P.T.2 or Momo Daytona, both under $800. Good aluminum containment seats get comparatively pricey quickly - and there's a lot of research to support their effectiveness. while I'd never suggest an SFI cert is actually useful on it's own, a 39.1 compliant seat should be a very safe place to sit. don't be turned off by a comparable seat without the cert. do not buy any seat that is NOT obviously comparable to an SFI 39.1 seat, nor an FIA style that is not 8855-1999 or the newer standard 8862-2009, which is the best type of seat you can buy IMHO.

Also, consider what Greg said, as well as your mounting options, the amount of room you have to the sides of the seat, etc... in your application. Something as simple as a transmission tunnel being very close to your leg as seated could make the decision for you (FIA tend to have very thick side flanges to create strength from the composite sheet while fabricated seats can strengthen where and as needed and can be much less wide in certain less critical areas).

[tom91ita]

I have a better than entry level aluminum that uses supports at the shoulders rathe wrapping you at the ribs. I have a minimal backbrace that will not injure me.

My sole concern with the fiberglass is that someone like SFI will declare they have a life expectancy of 2 or 5 years and they need periodic replacement based on sun exposure testing in sunlight in Death Valley or some other place we purported store our cars much like the seatbelt debacle.

That being said, I am looking at the entry level $800 seats noted above as my next seat because of side to side head support lost when the Isaac H&NR debacle occurred.

EDIT: seats i would look at (pricing might be dated) the OMP RS-P.T. 2 Racing Seat for $699, the OMP HTE for $899 and the Momo Daytona for $875 but on sale for $656

[Chip42]

My sole concern with the fiberglass is that someone like SFI will declare they have a life expectancy of 2 or 5 years and they need periodic replacement based on sun exposure testing in sunlight in Death Valley or some other place we purported store our cars much like the seatbelt debacle.

FIA calls out 5 years already, SCCA does not enforce. IIRC, NASA and PCA are among the organizations that DO. given all of the attention seat rules are and have been getting of late, it'd be wise to assume the 5 year rule will apply sooner than later in SCCA. if youhave luck like mine, you'll be replacing the whole F'ing car in that same interval so it can be rolled into that cost and hidden somewhat.

EDIT - please check with TrackSpeed if you are interested in the OMP seat.

[wepsbee]

I installed a new full containment seat in my Integra prior to last years season start.
We all know what I did to the car in turn 3 at NHMS I got out of the car with only a "WTF" feeling in my head and a slight bruise on my chest ( steering wheel). Seat was great, H&N system was great and all safety equipment worked as advertised. I had a small club style seat in my previous car and I shudder to think of the bouncing around I would have done in that seat. I was fully contained and appreciated it. I will always use this style seat.

[Simon T.]

I just bought an aluminum Kirkey, not containment, but their road race seat.

I did a lot of research as to what to get. I've even read from multiple people that FIA seats aren't really MADE to give, that's just the nature of the material. You can get into all types of debates, it's hard to find real answers. Some FIA seats even use seat back braces though.

I found some really good threads by searching Google though including one with input from someone who works for the FIA doing seat tests and some of his stories were pretty interesting, I'll see if I can find the thread.

[Ed Funk]

Have had Momo seats, kirkey road race seats, a Sparco full containment. Have always used two tubes coming forward from the cage to a plate across the seat back as a bck support. Te tubes are at the lateral areas of the back and even in a severe situation wouldn't be a danger to the driver. Will say that we feel the Sparco was probably responsible for breaking my ribs in a Mid-O crash a few years ago. Have been really happy with the Kirkeys. Will probably do a Kirkey full containment.

[tom91ita]

Ed,

Series 45 or 71?

http://kirkeyracing.com/index.php?li...srCustomFields[Road%20Race]=True&srSearchType=Eq

[Ed Funk]

45

[joeg]

Debating seats is like debating religion.

Go with what you like and can afford.

[Ed Funk]

False idols...and all that?

[tderonne]

I found some really good threads by searching Google though including one with input from someone who works for the FIA doing seat tests and some of his stories were pretty interesting, I'll see if I can find the thread.

That'd be interesting. Please post if you can find it again. The FIA 8855-1999 cert/test is a joke. A single 15g rearward impact test. That's WAY less than production car seats are tested to.

The newer FIA spec is good, don't confuse them. That's where you'll find seats with rear support. That's where you'll also find $5000 seats!

[Chip42]

That'd be interesting. Please post if you can find it again. The FIA 8855-1999 cert/test is a joke. A single 15g rearward impact test. That's WAY less than production car seats are tested to.

The newer FIA spec is good, don't confuse them. That's where you'll find seats with rear support. That's where you'll also find $5000 seats!

8855-1999 test is 20G rear, followed by 15G side and another 10G rear. not the harshest of tests but far more severe than you quote. these seats have proven over time to be VERY safe in a numbe rof applications from WRC to touring cars and club racing. and every model is tested, unlike a lof of the aluminum ones, even of the high end containment variety. I would never hesitate to recommend one of these seats over an untested kirkey or the like. even on proper sliders and especially without a back brace.

the 8862-2009 test is pretty impressive, using static loads in various places, even a crush test of up to 60kN combined, prescribed seat feature dimensions, etc... but NO requirement for a seat back brace, only the option for one. FWIW, allowed side deofrmation of the head region is 80mm lateral, 120mm rearward under loading 7/11/14kN (head shoulder pelvis) lateral and 7/14/14kN (head/shoulder/mid-back) rear. there are specifications for the aparatus to do these tests with load plate shapes and whatnot all defined. good test, good seats. absolutely the "money is no object" seat to have.

[DavidM]

There are tradeoffs. You can get a custom aluminum seat made without breaking the bank and you can typically mount an aluminum seat lower than a fiberglass one. Those were two of the big reasons I have a Kirkey seat. I'm tall and thin and was able to get the seat built to be the right width with the rib supports in the right area as well as have the shoulder strap holes be the correct height. This was impossible with off-the-shelf fiberglass seats. I was also able to get a custom frame built (attached to the cage) to mount the seat pretty much on the floor. I need all the headroom I can get. The seat fits me perfectly and holds me like a glove. Of course, probably nobody else could drive my car due to the seat setup. I looked at various fiberglass seats and nothing fit me quite right. I may have eventually found the right one, but maybe not.

As was said, whatever you do don't get some cheap PoS seat. Get a good seat and then spend the time and money to get it mounted correctly.

David

[Steve35]

also see:

http://www.joieofseating.net/


Steve

[tderonne]

20g rear, sorry. I think there used to be a tolerance on the acceleration that was quite large. Looks like it's 20g minimum now. Been a long time since I looked at the regs. The other loadings are just so minor. You're right, the FIA test is better than nothing. And lots of seats on the market far exceed the requirements. The Viper Racetech seat is a good example. It doesn't meet the newer spec, but is WAY over the 1999 spec. At one point all the seats that passed the new spec had rear support. The Viper seat has it, and won't pass the tests they did do without it.

I just see way too many folks thinking their 1999 rated seat is super safe. They may be safer driving to the track.

[Chip42]

As was said, whatever you do don't get some cheap PoS seat. Get a good seat and then spend the time and money to get it mounted correctly.

^^^^ This right here... a thousand times. nothing at all wrong with aluminum if you get a good one from one of the good builders (even Kirkey). it's the aluminum panel seats that scare the bejeezus out of me. like I said above, if you don't fit an FIA seat, an aluminum one IS the droid you're looking for... and you are a tall spindly dood.

and to Tim - spot on. probobly the singular biggest problems with FIA seats is the halo affect they seem to have. the seat is only as good as it's instalation and even with the minimum requirement of passing the 8855-1999 test some are far superior to others. fitment to the driver and condition make a big difference, too. even the advanced spec FIA seats and high end NASCAR style containment types are no good if they are secured poorly, or to rotten floorboards, etc...

This is a good discussion.