ITS e36 BMW

[chuck baader]

Out of curiosity, there were quite a few ITS BMWs running in SEDIV before the implementation of the SIR. I want to know what killed the car. Non competitive HP, engine problems, lack of tune, etc.? Any comments. Thanks, Chuck

[Andy Bettencourt]

Out of curiosity, there were quite a few ITS BMWs running in SEDIV before the implementation of the SIR. I want to know what killed the car. Non competitive HP, engine problems, lack of tune, etc.? Any comments. Thanks, Chuck

I am willing to bet it was a combination of the following:

- SIR not working as promised (was sold to CRB/ITAC as a devise that would only affect HP above a certain level when in fact it tool away a very linear % from all build levels)
- Full build needed to achieve power to weight target
- New ITR class at less weight and no restriction

I would check to see if those cars got mothballed or they went to ITR. I bet most went to ITR, some went to NASA and some went to BMWCCA.

[JeffYoung]

I started racing during the era of the unrestricted E36, which you had to see to believe. Rookies showing up and nearly winning the SARRC championship in year one (STeve Stubbs). Top flight drivers going 2-3 seconds faster in the E36 than they did a year before in a top flight other make S car (Whittel). And so on.

And they did pretty much all disappear at once.....why? Combination of factors.

1. All serious BMW efforts save the Robertsons hit a wall all at once. Stubbs really only wanted to play for a year or two in SEDiv and went to BMWCCA. The Shavers, one of them passed away. Carlos GArcia destroyed his car at Roebling. Bimmerworld had just moved on to World Challenge. Sunbelt had basically wound down their IT program.

2. The perception was that the ITAC was screwing the BMW, and a lot of folks just threw up their hands and quit. They did not realize it was the CRB that advocated the SIR (not that this was a screwing, just misguided in my view), not the ITAC.

3. THere were some initial power and driveability problems with the SIR. However, no one fully developed it.

4. From OUTWARD APPEARANCES it seemed to me that the few remaining ITS E36s were reasonably competitive - Mark Andrews and the Robertsons - although development on them seemed to stop while RX7, Z car, Mustang, Miata, and TR8 development continued. We are now running close to teh same times the unrestricted E36s did years ago.

5. THe easy button is not to prep an ITS E36 and tune around the SIR, but rather to build one for ITR and go there.

I still think the E36 could be very competitive in ITS in the SEDiv. Would take some work, but it has a great suspension, good brakes and that 1:1 5th gear.

[chuck baader]

Jeff, from what I have seen, the SIR pretty much killed the ITS version as I never see one run in SEDIV.

Going to ITR is certainly a choice, but the tire budget gets doubled!! If I build one I would prefer to stay on the 15 X 7 wheels.

Any thoughts to how the CRB could be prompted into revisiting the SIR?

And finally, the unrestricted BWS's times have been eclipsed most everywhere, which leads me to believe it was not actually an overdog, but several extremely prepared cars in fields of not so prepared cars.

[JeffYoung]

Jeff, from what I have seen, the SIR pretty much killed the ITS version as I never see one run in SEDIV.

Going to ITR is certainly a choice, but the tire budget gets doubled!! If I build one I would prefer to stay on the 15 X 7 wheels.

Any thoughts to how the CRB could be prompted into revisiting the SIR?

And finally, the unrestricted BWS's times have been eclipsed most everywhere, which leads me to believe it was not actually an overdog, but several extremely prepared cars in fields of not so prepared cars.

Lots of incorrect in that post unfortunately Chuck.

The fact is NO ONE really tried hard with the SIR, and even without doing so, at least two E36s remained fairly competitive with (rumors) 190ish whp. Which at 2850 is still reasonably competitive with teh rest of ITS. And that is without any real tuning on the SIR.

Actually, the unrestricted BMW times have NOT been eclipsed most everywhere. They still hold the track record at Summit and VIR.

In their day, those cars were tremendous overdogs. 215-220 whp at 2850. What's happened is that shock and spring tuning, brake pad performance, and engine development on other cars have started to catch up.

I never favored teh SIR over weight, but weight on the 325 in ITS would be somewhere around 3270 lbs I believe at 215 rwhp.

WRite a letter and we will consider it though. I think the SIR is out of place in ITS

[chuck baader]

"at least two E36s remained fairly competitive with" who and at what tracks. And 2 out of how many that were built? SIR killed the car, period.

"They still hold the track record at Summit and VIR. " two tracks I'm not familiar with. Road Atlanta (the ARRC) and other SEDIV tracks, I believe, have been eclipsed. Furthermore, in my and many other's opinion, if they don't show up at the ARRC, they don't exist.

"What's happened is that shock and spring tuning, brake pad performance, and engine development on other cars have started to catch up." reinforces my point of development. The e36 was the first car to benefit greatly from the ECU rule and prompted the CRB to kill the ECU rule. Development:026:


"190ish whp. Which at 2850 is still reasonably competitive with the rest of ITS" Until you realize that the RX7 has about that much HP at 2680!

[JeffYoung]

"at least two E36s remained fairly competitive with" who and at what tracks. And 2 out of how many that were built? SIR killed the car, period.

"They still hold the track record at Summit and VIR. " two tracks I'm not familiar with. Road Atlanta (the ARRC) and other SEDIV tracks, I believe, have been eclipsed. Furthermore, in my and many other's opinion, if they don't show up at the ARRC, they don't exist.

"What's happened is that shock and spring tuning, brake pad performance, and engine development on other cars have started to catch up." reinforces my point of development. The e36 was the first car to benefit greatly from the ECU rule and prompted the CRB to kill the ECU rule. Development:026:


"190ish whp. Which at 2850 is still reasonably competitive with the rest of ITS" Until you realize that the RX7 has about that much HP at 2680!

Let's start from the bottom. No, ITS RX7s don't make that kind of power. You've been misinformed. 180, maybe slightly more, is the best they will do. And they are at a huge torque disadvantage to the BMW.

Kill what ECU rule? Everyone has a free ECU now. Everyone takes advantage of it. The VANOS on the E36 did I agree react better to ECU tuning than expected, hence the overdog problem

I repeat: 215-225 whp at 2850 was a HUGE problem. THE single biggest overdog in IT in the last 15 years.

The Robertsons ran their E36 (Taylor and Grafton and their dad) for sometime after the SIR was implemented. THey weren't happy about teh SIR, but they remained reasonably competitive. Mark Andrews ran his car in the CenDiv and I raced against it in the TR at Nashville. Roughly equivalent power it seemed.

I do agree the SIR killed the ITS E36 because it levelled the playing field and people were racing the car because it was the easy button overdog. Those people looking for the easy button -- rather than doing the hard work I've done or Eckerich has done or STeve Parrish or Ron EArp or the ISC guys with the Miatas -- bailed because they didn't want to do the work.

No one that I know has spent any real time developing the SIR. The car may be very compeittive with it if they do. SOme think the SIR really won't impat overall power when tuned right (the Robertsons disagree).

And stop with the homer "if it isn't at the ARRC it doesn't exist" nonsense. The days of the ARRC being the measuring stick for IT competitiveness ended years ago. There is better compeittion in the NEDiv and the SEDiv in ITS than at the ARRC now.

[JeffYoung]

So let's be clear here. I'm fine with the ITAC revisiting the SIR. I think it was a mistake and I agree with your basic premise that it killed the E36. It did, but it did so because at least in significnat part because people did not TRY to work with it. They punched the easy button and went to ITR or BMWCCA.

I would actually support the SIR coming off the car, but understand you are looking at a 3280 race weight. I'm sure there will be griping about that.

We are NOT going to back to 2850 and no SIR, which was a mess. We had a car making 215 whp at least at 2850, and probably more for some of the best examples.

So yes, the SIR would be reconsidered by the ITAC but not in the context of a whitewashing of the history regarding the E36 based on the misconception that the car was NOT an overdog. It was.

[lawtonglenn]

.... ITS RX7s don't make that kind of power. You've been misinformed. 180, maybe slightly more, is the best they will do. And they are at a huge torque disadvantage to the BMW....

Actually we have not yet seen 180... 174, 176 yes, but not 180
and while not totally wrung out, our cars are pretty well sorted

.

[JeffYoung]

THere are a couple kicking around down here at 180.

[preparedcivic]

Actually, the BMW to have in ITS is an E46 323i at 3000lbs. No SIR, and if the VANOS is cracked correctly I've heard something close to 220 at the wheels. There are some up here in NEDiv and a few more getting built.

[Knestis]

...and once ITR is fully propagated with good builds, the unrestricted e36 is going to face some serious competition. R is a long way from being maxed out, as a class.

K

[JeffYoung]

Actually, the BMW to have in ITS is an E46 323i at 3000lbs. No SIR, and if the VANOS is cracked correctly I've heard something close to 220 at the wheels. There are some up here in NEDiv and a few more getting built.

THis is correct. There was one in the SEDiv built to the max and it was almost impossible to beat (and very well driven).

[lateapex911]

During my time on the ITAC, I was involved in the SIR testing, and implementation. Watching a car run with different SIRs on a dyno was painful. I told Dowie I was at best on the fence, and not impressed with the data we had as being conclusive. I reported same essentially within committee. The ITA didn't recommend the SIR.

I also reached out to BMW big dogs. They hated the SIR, and some that I spoke with were seriously pissed with the club at the change. They'd done their homework, in their eyes, and were now being singled out and punished. They said FU, and took their balls and money and moved on to other greener pastures. Others who spoke up and were winning races were doing so with junkyard motors. They went BMWCCA racing, also pissed at the comp adjustment.

So, I think the SIR "helped" make people tip their decision scales. certainly it caused a few to flat quit the club in disgust. I remember thinking at the time that we'd lose a bunch, but that number would be less than the number of OTHER ITS guys that would quit if nothing was dome about the E36. The wound was open and bleeding because of E36 clusterfuck classing before the SIR....The initial classing, the subsequent lowering then raising of the weight was bungled to begin with, and the SIR was the straw that broke the camels back. The SIR was considered in my mind, an amputation, one that the CRB felt was the best option.

Up in the NE, the Maynards persevered with the SIR, and had fits. Dowie, and others helped, and gradually they got better, ultimately becoming competitive. Keep in mid the tracks they mostly ran were Lime Rock and NHMS.

Glenn, the top edge for the ITS car is 180. Have you seen Huffmaster run an ITS 7 at road Atlanta? If not, you'll be a changed man.

[JeffYoung]

In the long run, the E36 had to be fixed. It was killing ITS at 215 (or more) whp and 2850. Car counts have come back up and the racing is very competitive now.

I'd love to see the E36 back in S at the higher weight.

Chuck, if we did recommend removing the SIR and reprocessing the car, would you consider running it at 3270 or so?

[chuck baader]

"n the long run, the E36 had to be fixed. It was killing ITS at 215 (or more) whp and 2850. Car counts have come back up and the racing is very competitive now." Agreed...killing the car certainly brought back ITS numbers which may or may not have unintended consequences but it worked.

Jeff, the numbers I was hearing during the ITS BMW discussions were 190ish for the SpeedSource cars, and 230ish for the Sunbelt cars. At that, the BMW was certainly a gross overdog.

Run one at 3270? I don't think so...I really don't think it would be competitive at that weight simply because of the limitation on wheels/tires. In addition, you would have to run some 300+ pounds of ballast and I don't feel that is safe.

[JeffYoung]

Those numbers are higher than what is pretty commonly accepted for these cars, and don't jive with what I see on track. 180 is abou max for an RX7. 225 was the reported best for an E36 with 210-215 more "normal."

Running the E36 through the process at 215 puts it at 3270 or so without the SIR. It would be competitive at that weight, just not an overdog. I'd like to see the cars come back to ITS but obvoiusly at 2850 and 215 whp they'd cause big problems.

[JIgou]

Our car is under-prepped and under-driven, but rolls across the scales at a bit over 3,000 lbs with driver no matter where we go, and that's even with the horse jockey in the driver's seat. I have more....leeway, should we say?

I've wondered about just how much "development" we could throw at the SIR and intake tract, especially since the IT rules don't spell out the full SIR implementation the way the GT rules do with regard to compliance testing and stall and all of that good stuff. Sam Henry is probably lucky we're not closer to him or I'd be tempted to put this thing on the dyno even more.....

The bottom line is that we love the ARRC, and will figure out some class to run in....but as-is, we're probably done with ITS. Before we spend the bucks to chase a mythical HP number breathing through the SIR, we'll spend similar bucks to swap the powerplant for something that starts with an "S" instead of an "M", then go get thumped in STU....but with another 80 HP on tap.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Appropriate weights for a RWD ITS car with no other adders at the following WHP:


170: 2675
180: 2830
190: 2990
200: 3146
210: 3305
220: 3460
230: 3620

[Andy Bettencourt]

Running the E36 through the process at 215 puts it at 3270 or so without the SIR.

It does? Can you show that math. I may be rusty. I get 3382 rounded down to 3380.