February 2013 Fastrack

[924Guy]

Now that I'm running Nationals/Majors, and in one of the classes that isn't SM/SM-Lite/Prod SM/GT SM, I'm definitely moving more and more in the direction of "leave IT alone and be glad"... serving on two rule advisory subcommittees isn't doing much to impair that, either...

[gran racing]

While there's no way of controlling costs in racing, it is possible to make some of those with big bucks feel like it's not as cool or prestigious. Not being a national class does this for many. I really do not believe that as being a bad thing. Yeah, there are a fair share of IT cars with big bucks in them but it's not nearly as prevalent as it would be if IT went national IMO.

We need a category where the average Joe can look at and think building or buying a car is relatively attainable, then can go racing and not get their asses totally handed to them due to everyone else outspending them. IT still serves as this critical place for the Club.

Be careful of what you wish for.

[Knestis]

Reasonable points all, Greg (et al.). Those ideas are a big part of the reason I asked for the "never National" clause to be removed, rather than proposing that IT be granted National status.

I didn't have any interest in trying to convince anyone of anything, and didn't want to rehash all of the various positions on the subject. I just wanted to assess the boards' (CRB and BoD) current position on the POSSIBILITY.

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

While there's no way of controlling costs in racing, it is possible to make some of those with big bucks feel like it's not as cool or prestigious. Not being a national class does this for many. I really do not believe that as being a bad thing. Yeah, there are a fair share of IT cars with big bucks in them but it's not nearly as prevalent as it would be if IT went national IMO.

We need a category where the average Joe can look at and think building or buying a car is relatively attainable, then can go racing and not get their asses totally handed to them due to everyone else outspending them. IT still serves as this critical place for the Club.

Be careful of what you wish for.

One of the things that would happen IMHO is very similar to most all (except maybe SM) National classes, is the top dollar cars go run Nationals and the Regional-level cars run Regionals. After the initial giddiness of the inclusion, the water would find it's level and your 'Joe' would actually be BETTER off as the top stuff would be gone.

[Flyinglizard]

The easiest place to restrict cost and cash input in general, is to change the tire rule to a much higher tread wear rating.
Reduce the lap time benefit of brand new tires.

[Chip42]

wrong. tire cost would be helpful, but you still need to get things outside of club control like the gas, insurance, rental, etc.. costs down (a huge plus in CFR due to the awesome deals we get with DIS and SIR) and take away the desire to win to drop the costs. if street tires turn out to have a sweet spot on the 3rd through 7th heat cycles (just an example) then you can bet the top guys will have extra track time booked to run in their rubber before a race weekend. that would end up costing MORE than new hohos every weekend. other stuff on the car can cost a ton too - from development to brake parts. Castrol brake fluid costs over $80/bottle. seriously, get over the tires being a magic bullet. they are just an expense. racers will always spend what is avaialble on what they can do to maximize performance within the rules. right now, a guy can run on star specs if he so chooses. if he doesn't want to spend top tier money, he doesn't have to. he wont win, but with that mentality and budget, he wouldn't anyhow.

thats the reality. racing is expensive because everything about racing in this day and age is expensive. if we were running all simple spec cars with general event fees like they were 20 or 30 years ago, yeah, tires might be a huge percentage of the weekend. now they're just another big cost, but not out of proportionally so.

[StephenB]

legend cars! did you know they run 11 road course events at nhms! any guess on the entry fee? $30.... top of the line car is less than 15k. 132hp rocket ships. tires last all season!

Stephen

[Dano77]

LEGEND CARS!!!!!! Did you know you can buy them at the NHMS in thier own Dealer showroom. And they also have a working shop on race day when you crash.

All this for 30 bucks?

but wait theres more..........

[Flyinglizard]

And the class is smart enough to race on 300-400TW tires.

When oval tracks have a hard tire rule , IE "4cyl Box stock", 400TW tires, the class thrives. Some tracks then move to make money from the tires, allowing slicks , etc. The class dies as you need a new tire or two every week. Happens all over the country BTW.
Again, copy success. The hard tire groups are the most successful @ this point in time. Chump 190, lemons 190, legends 300-400( federal 595) Chumps can get 20+hrs out of a set of tires.

1991 My winning stock car used 10 DOT tires for 14 races, (winning 7-8)
1992, my first year of SCCA. The Yokes lasted all year.2 schools, 3 races.

Last weekend @ PBIR, ask around how many Hoosiers were used by the SM. 4 new each day for many..
Tires are a big part of the cost per race.
SCCA cant be afraid to change with the times to be successful. IMHO.
Fun per $ is the key to a successful business model.

[Bill Miller]

One of the things that would happen IMHO is very similar to most all (except maybe SM) National classes, is the top dollar cars go run Nationals and the Regional-level cars run Regionals. After the initial giddiness of the inclusion, the water would find it's level and your 'Joe' would actually be BETTER off as the top stuff would be gone.

That's been my standard response to the "If IT goes National, it will cost everybody more" argument for years now. All you have to do is look at the folks running cars in other categories at Regionals to see it.

My issue with what the CRB said, is essentially what my issue w/ the CRB has been for years. They think they run the show, and they know what is best for the members. If the members want IT to be National-eligible, the CRB's job is to implement the wishes of the membership, not give them the finger.

I would just like to know who is driving it, and what the real motivation behind it is. There is no obvious, objective reason for it.

[Greg Amy]

My issue with what the CRB said, is essentially what my issue w/ the CRB has been for years. They think they run the show, and they know what is best for the members. If the members want IT to be National-eligible, the CRB's job is to implement the wishes of the membership, not give them the finger.

Um, the CRB does run the show, Bill.

This is not a democracy. It actually is the Club Racing Board's responsibility to determine what is best for Club Racing (not for any specific member or explicit group of members) and implement that action appropriately.

The CRB's authority comes directly from the SCCA's Board of Directors, so if you disagree with their recommendations (all changes of which are explicitly approved by the BoD) then use your power as a club member and make your wishes known to your Board representative.

GA

[Bill Miller]

Um, the CRB does run the show, Bill.

This is not a democracy. It actually is the Club Racing Board's responsibility to determine what is best for Club Racing (not for any specific member or explicit group of members) and implement that action appropriately.

The CRB's authority comes directly from the SCCA's Board of Directors, so if you disagree with their recommendations (all changes of which are explicitly approved by the BoD) then use your power as a club member and make your wishes known to your Board representative.

GA

We can agree to disagree Greg. My take is that the CRB should implement the wishes of the membership in a way that is as equitable to everyone as possible. If the majority of the membership wants IT to be National-eligible, they shouldn't have to go to the extreme of changing the BoD to get that implemented. Especially in a case where the only justification is "Because that's the way we say it's going to be". And I certainly wasn't the only one that saw the CRB's comment as a big FU to the membership.

[Greg Amy]

We can agree to disagree Greg.

It's not "disagreement", Bill; it's "fact". That's how the systems works, regardless how you want to "take" it.

And you clicking your heels together three times and wishing really, really hard - or bitching about it on the Internet - ain't gonna change that.

GA

[Flyinglizard]

Member driven club? Take a dam IT Nationals poll.
Most IT guys dont/cant, spend the cash to run the 3 day waste of time that the Nationals/Majors are.

The Nationals are set up for the older, non working, rich guys.
They fly in , rent a car , run for points. Not in the IT spirit at all, IMHO.
A few build their own cars.

[lateapex911]

I've taken a number of polls over the years, some informal via the internet, and some more official. I also asked everyone I could at the tracks I visited during my tenure on the ITAC. Bottom line: ten years ago, about a third of IT drivers wanted National status. The most recent one (now a few years ago) showed a significant shift, over half wanted national status.

[RSTPerformance]

I go back and forth on this one... Leaving the CRB out of it, tonight I think if IT went National (the way it is now) it would devide the class into two groups, regional guys/gals and national guys/gals. The major issue being that we now would have 1/2 the fields split between the evens and low car counts would significantly reduce the appeal to people like me. I don't think it would draw more people to the class.

Now if SCCA was smart, everything would just be the same and all races in a region would be eligible (Not necessarily count if you had a caped # races) to earn points towards some sort of regional points champion) and the top "X" amount would be invited to 1 National championship (The Runoffs) for all classes in the GCR.

Raymond "If you think newbies have a hard time understanding the GCR you should ask them about the multiple series that overlap regions and status... I bet they don't have a clue!" Blethen

[Ron Earp]

Raymond "If you think newbies have a hard time understanding the GCR you should ask them about the multiple series that overlap regions and status... I bet they don't have a clue!" Blethen

I'm not all that new and I have no clue about all the majors, regionals, nationals, rationals, stuff. I just have a car and like to race.

[gran racing]

So what exactly is the difference between Regionals and Nationals again? I get that question, try to explain it, but in the end it's more of a that's just how they did it. For the good of the Club, maybe it's time to end this distinction. Still don't invite everyone to the ruboffs. I know there will be issues and maybe it would be time to consolidate. No simple task for sure!

[Greg Amy]

For the good of the Club, maybe it's time to end this distinction. Still don't invite everyone to the ruboffs.

Great idea! Let's get rid of divisional Nationals entirely, let people run Regionals to qualify for the Runoffs, and maybe even create a parallel semi-pro championship, and then call it, oh I dunno, maybe "The Majors Program"...?

Whadya think?

- GA

[R2 Racing]

MThe Nationals are set up for the older, non working, rich guys.
They fly in , rent a car , run for points. Not in the IT spirit at all, IMHO.
A few build their own cars.

I was sipping my coffee when I read this. You now owe me one computer screen.


<--- Not old, working, not rich, never flown into or rented a thing, build my own cars & engines in my own shop in my own backyard, and have lots of shiny medals and plaques that say "1st Place" on them. But yes, I have been quilty of running for points, so ya got me there.