Letter 9387

[StephenB]

So I agree that this is a cool idea for YOU in YOUR region. However I DO NOT think it is a great idea for the National IT Rule set in the GCR. (I say national as in covering all of SCCA not just your region. I totally understand it is a regional only class.)

The BEST part of scca is that we are a CLUB. Try to be positive rather than negative like others are including myself at times. Talk to the other IT racers you will race with. THEY ARE THE ONES you want to influence NOT the National office (ITAC, CRB, BOD etc). Remember REGIONAL classes can do WHATEVER THEY WANT within their region as long as it is mentioned in the supplimental regulations! It would be VERY easy for you to create a class called ITB2 with what your describing. Your region can adopt this class and then put in the supplimental regulations that ITB2 can run as ITB in that event or "series" if your doing a season long championship.

Here is an example of that exact same philosophy at work here in the NorthEast (which continues to have strong car counts with this out of the box thinking). I encourage EVERYONE to look at this idea especially Mike as this may resolve lots of the issues you have with SCCA and IT in general.

************************************************** *****************************
TreadZone Pro IT Series Rules 4/8/2012
************************************************** *****************************
2. CLASS ELIGIBILITY
Recognized classes - ITR, ITS, ITA, ITB, ITC, SM

2.1 SCCA Improved Touring (IT) cars - ITR, ITS, ITA, ITB, and ITC; cars must conform to the Improved Touring Category Specifications (ITCS).

2.2 Spec Miata (SM) cars must conform to Spec Miata Category specifications (SMCS). The spec tires for SM are the Toyo Proxes RA-1, Toyo R888 and Hoosier SM6, size 205-50 R15, shaved or unshaved; only one brand may be run at an event. The purpose of this rule is permit competitors to run on any one of three different tires (RA-1, R888 or SM6) without allowing switches during the event e.g. qualify on one tire, race on another. Hoosier H2O rain tires are
permitted for wet weather. When conditions warrant any of these four tires may be used as rain tires; rain tires are free from the one brand rule.

2.3 Showroom Spec Miata (SSM) may compete; SSM must conform to the SSM Technical
Specifications on the NESCCA web site (www.NeDIV.com). SSM will be classified as SM.

2.4 Improved Touring 7 (IT7) and Washington DC Region Spec RX-7 (SRX7) may compete. IT7 and SRX7 will be classified as ITA.

2.5 Non-SCCA classes

2.5.1 Cars built to ‘944 Cup Racing Series’ rules (www.44cup.com) may participate. These include 2 classes: ‘Cup’ must conform to the ITS Rules and will compete in ITS and ‘Super Cup’ must conform to the ITR Rules and will be classified as ITR.

2.5.2 Cars built to NASA® SpecE30 class rules rules (www.spece30.com) may participate, must conform to the ITS Rules and will be classified as ITS.
************************************************** *******************************
Remember if the guys you want to run with WANT you to run with them they can make that happen! I will be honest in saying that I wanted to purchase a continental cup car to race in ITR and asked the guys that were running the class if they would be cool with seam welding and cages welded to the pillars. They all said NO. I accepted that and moved on, building our second RX8 know from scratch which will be more money but hey thems the rules and the guys I am racing with want to play by them, has nothing to do with the ITAC, CRB, or BOD...

Good luck and let us know if it works out for you!
Stephen

[StephenB]

In short if you don't feel like reading all that...

This will work if you want it to but your asking the wrong people.

Stephen

[Chip42]

Great post, stephen. Thank you.

[evanwebb]

Well actually I wasn't asking this forum, I was informing that I had asked the ITAC and CRB. A good general followon discussion would be some honest discussion about the future of ITC since it is seemingly headed in one inexorable direction. My plan would provide a place for some of the existing ITC cars to go and though it is a change from the status quo I really don't think the practical consequence is a big deal.

[downingracing]

Well actually I wasn't asking this forum, I was informing that I had asked the ITAC and CRB. A good general followon discussion would be some honest discussion about the future of ITC since it is seemingly headed in one inexorable direction. My plan would provide a place for some of the existing ITC cars to go and though it is a change from the status quo I really don't think the practical consequence is a big deal.

ITC may be headed that direction in your region - but that isn't the case everywhere. Around here (Ohio) ITC is strong and there are several cars with a very good chance to win each weekend. The competition is so good that there are a few of us thinking about building/buying ITC cars for 2013 to join the fun.

[Knestis]

The C race at the 'fest was one of the best of the weekend, by a long shot.

K

[Flyinglizard]

The new B spec cars will be there in 12yrs maybe. Maybe not
Look around for the ITC engines. Not easy finding even a VW 1.6 or 1.5.. The 1.8 is tough to find. What should these guys do when the engine bits are gone?
Long term IT rules may consider up dated engines? Not likely.

Get all done building the ITC car and it's value is not very high either.
40,50% of build. The Perry Honda was for sale for ever post ARRC win, for maybe 5000$ or less.
AS far as Evans car. I have seen the Mk 1 Rocco run with the JH engine and no - one said anything other than "pretty car".


No doubt the class is lots of fun. Slow and many cars is the best fun , the pain of the pass takes that much longer.
WE had a new car here in CFR ,Honda that was swapped, and really had no class. Won both ITB races. The class talked to him(not tech) and he withdrew his times, took the finish for his novice permit and went NASAracing/.
The easiest road to take with the ITC cars is very regional IMHO.
Vintage or Prod, non swapped. Prod may be much more receptive to allowing the 1.8 in your car.
HP is getting bigger( maybe 10cars) here as many old cars are running HP. The ITC cars are allowed more speed parts and we got beat by a 1.6 Rocco last time out.

Short story , do the above and propose a regional "IT update" class. That is how SM started.

[ShelbyRacer]

Short story , do the above and propose a regional "IT update" class. That is how SM started.

Actually, a while back, I heard that SM started in the NE because- #1 "Miatas probably wouldn't be competitive in IT" and #2 "IT racing has too much contact"

It was probably more revisionist history, but it's damn funny to think that there may have been a shred of truth to it.

[StephenB]

Well actually I wasn't asking this forum, I was informing that I had asked the ITAC and CRB. A good general followon discussion would be some honest discussion about the future of ITC since it is seemingly headed in one inexorable direction. My plan would provide a place for some of the existing ITC cars to go and though it is a change from the status quo I really don't think the practical consequence is a big deal.

Sorry for the confusion. I meant asking the ITAC by sending a letter was the wrong people not on this forum. I would take your letter to your next Comp meeting and ask them along with the drivers in ITB in your area. Those are the poeple to ask not the ITAC or CRB. I think this forum is a perfect place to ask to get a taste of what people will say so you can plan for the questions and concerns that may come up when you do ask them in person.

The C race at the 'fest was one of the best of the weekend, by a long shot.

K

Ummm no actually. It WAS the best! Each ITC race in fact was the best! No offence to others as I was crewing for ITB and that is where my heart is but ITC was awesome to watch!

The new B spec cars will be there in 12yrs maybe. Maybe not
Look around for the ITC engines. Not easy finding even a VW 1.6 or 1.5.. The 1.8 is tough to find. What should these guys do when the engine bits are gone?
Long term IT rules may consider up dated engines? Not likely..

Mike, refer to what the IT7 or spec RX7 guys are looking into. Lots of good reading on this site if you search for it. This problem your facing with your VWs is something that existed long ago with others. What do you suggest the RX7 guys do? Allow them to drop in a renesis and run in ITR?

Get all done building the ITC car and it's value is not very high either.
40,50% of build. The Perry Honda was for sale for ever post ARRC win, for maybe 5000$ or less.
AS far as Evans car. I have seen the Mk 1 Rocco run with the JH engine and no - one said anything other than "pretty car".

I think all cars are worth 40-50% of cost after they are built. But value also declines if their is no interest. For example my 3,000 square foot house is much more valuable in the center of NY city than it is here in the woods of NH. The lack of interest is what you are refering to and that is a mistake you made when deciding to build the car and not seeing what was to come. Ya its a gamble but you can't blame others for that. I built an ITR car not an ITS car because I think that ITR will grow here in the NE and ITS will continue to decline making the value of my car higher if I decided to sell it someday. not sure why you mentioned the MK 1 Rocco and how it is relevent to this conversation.

No doubt the class is lots of fun. Slow and many cars is the best fun , the pain of the pass takes that much longer.
WE had a new car here in CFR ,Honda that was swapped, and really had no class. Won both ITB races. The class talked to him(not tech) and he withdrew his times, took the finish for his novice permit and went NASAracing/.
The easiest road to take with the ITC cars is very regional IMHO.
Vintage or Prod, non swapped. Prod may be much more receptive to allowing the 1.8 in your car.

HP is getting bigger( maybe 10cars) here as many old cars are running HP. The ITC cars are allowed more speed parts and we got beat by a 1.6 Rocco last time out.

Short story , do the above and propose a regional "IT update" class. That is how SM started.

See it is Funny. Here in the NE HP is boring, slowest Prod class, and no cars ever run in it. I would vote to do something to make it go away. (I actually would never do that since it doesn't effect me but you get my point) It all depends on where you are located and what people are running.

Actually, a while back, I heard that SM started in the NE because- #1 "Miatas probably wouldn't be competitive in IT" and #2 "IT racing has too much contact"

It was probably more revisionist history, but it's damn funny to think that there may have been a shred of truth to it.

I think you are correct. they went to a comp board meeting, made up the rules that THEY wanted. When it became a nationaly recognized regional class the rules changed and they created SSM. Those rules everyone didn't like when newer miatas where classed and now we have SM2 here in the NE. So I think we have SM, SSM, and SM2 here in the NorthEast and maybe even some others.

She sky is the limit and since this is Regional Club racing you can pretty much create as many classes as YOUR region wants to.

Stephen

[rcc85]

Evan,

If we could get all 4 ITC cars that raced at Summit Point to show up on the same weekend, that would help. Add in the ITC Honda that I was racing with at the NJMP MARRS race in July (a great tooth & nail battle until my engine blew!!) and the Purple Dodge Colt that has been running in HP (but still ITC legal, I think) and we could get 6 cars.

Maybe we could coordinate our schedules and pick a couple races and designate them as "ITC Special Events" and publize them to bring out more C cars.

Also, I think the VIN rule change hurt ITC in the DC region as the Hondas made the move to ITB.

BTW, Evan, I'm guessing that if the 1.6 Sirrocco was classified in ITB, the minimum weight would not be acheivable, correct?

Bob Clifton
ITC Dodge Daytona

[evanwebb]

So I'll just point out that I am proposing a dual classing: nobody is being asked to leave ITC. It's just another option to be able to run in ITB instead.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion but the thread has done the usual thing of drifting away from the original subject. I'll patiently await the "not consistent with class philosophy" from CRB.

[evanwebb]

Evan,

If we could get all 4 ITC cars that raced at Summit Point to show up on the same weekend, that would help. Add in the ITC Honda that I was racing with at the NJMP MARRS race in July (a great tooth & nail battle until my engine blew!!) and the Purple Dodge Colt that has been running in HP (but still ITC legal, I think) and we could get 6 cars.

Maybe we could coordinate our schedules and pick a couple races and designate them as "ITC Special Events" and publize them to bring out more C cars.

Also, I think the VIN rule change hurt ITC in the DC region as the Hondas made the move to ITB.

BTW, Evan, I'm guessing that if the 1.6 Sirrocco was classified in ITB, the minimum weight would not be acheivable, correct?

Bob Clifton
ITC Dodge Daytona

Bob not sure of your arithmetic but if we could get 6 cars that would really cool. Maybe get Al Bell to bring out his 510, that would be crazy cool. I agree that having all the Hondas run ITB hurts ITC, but hey I would do the same. And yes I'm 50 lb overweight now in ITC, it would probably be 200# overweight in ITB if not more, and I would never expect to get fast enough with the 1.6 to even be remotely competitive.

One of my options is to pull all the racy bits off the ITC car, find a later car that is classed in ITB and swap stuff over. I guess someone in the VW community would want the old shell...

[ShelbyRacer]

Evan,

As a MARRS ITB racer, I'd have no issue with doing what you're proposing locally. I'm not sure it's the Right Way to Go (TM) for IT on a larger scale, but I'd welcome another option to give us some close racing in our area. I'm not sure how much I count, but I think you should look into the possibility and talk to Kevin or Greg or someone else involved at that level in DC Region.

[EH9racing]

One of my options is to pull all the racy bits off the ITC car, find a later car that is classed in ITB and swap stuff over. I guess someone in the VW community would want the old shell...

If ALL the racy bits swap, why not do that instead of attempting to change IT or adding a regional class that only has a few people running it?

Look at it this way. What do you have to do to a car to do what you proposed in letter 9387? What do you have to do to get what I just quoted done? To me it sounds like option 1 requires a running street car (can be wrecked badly with no damage to important parts, like tree crushed roof or something) and a whole lot of convencing people its fair, and option 2 requires a running street car and a roll cage (can be slightly dinged but good condition).

[jjjanos]

Look around for the ITC engines. Not easy finding even a VW 1.6 or 1.5.. The 1.8 is tough to find. What should these guys do when the engine bits are gone?

Get a newer car or convert your car to a class that allows for alternate power-trains.

Get all done building the ITC car and it's value is not very high either.
40,50% of build. The Perry Honda was for sale for ever post ARRC win, for maybe 5000$ or less.

1. Because an ITC car has a limited market because, except for some survivor colonies.
2. The price of a used race car always stinks.

[Flyinglizard]

Please dont use the line" Get a new car". it is the wrong answer. That is why these guys leave.
We must do everything in our power to not say that!!

[jjjanos]

I agree that having all the Hondas run ITB hurts ITC, but hey I would do the same.

For the most part, they did not convert their C cars into B cars. 5 years ago, I think there were 6 regular ITC Hondas. 2 of those drivers moved to ITA. 2 of those drivers parked their cars because life happens. 1 of those drivers made a deliberate decision to sell the C car (it went to the Nelson area) and purchase an already built ITB car. 1 of those drivers used the VIN rule.

[CRallo]

The C race at the 'fest was one of the best of the weekend, by a long shot.

K

Ummm no actually. It WAS the best! Each ITC race in fact was the best! No offence to others as I was crewing for ITB and that is where my heart is but ITC was awesome to watch!

Stephen, reread what Kirk said. His is not the most elegant sentence, I would know as I'm king of that, but the two of you agree on that topic.

[StephenB]

I know chris... I was just "going 1 up" on him saying it really was. I wasn't disagreeing with him at all

Stephen

[JeffYoung]

Please dont use the line" Get a new car". it is the wrong answer. That is why these guys leave.
We must do everything in our power to not say that!!

I agree, generally speaking.

At the same time, the owner of the car can't ask us for anything more than a place to race and a "rough" chance at competitiveness. It cannot be our job to insure that cars in a class with 70 or 80 stock hp have full fields, or that they are all competitive. A place to race? Yes, I agree on that. No delisting of cars or retirement of classes (consolidation maybe).