Chumpcars can run NASA !!

[forestdweller37]

The top running teams here in the Iowa/Minnesota/Wisconsin area aren't that expensive. They're just stock E30 or E36 BMW's with some maintenance and good drivers.

The same drivers/cars wouldn't be running up front in a more competitive region then. IMHO good/great driving, good suspension, stock motor gets you mid-pack in parts of the country where IT is highly competitive. We put a driver who's finished 2nd in prod at the Runoffs more than once in our car, and he was more than 3 sec slower than top ITS times in our region (CFR) at the track we ran. We have spent about what you'd have in a top running Chump car in our car, with essentially a stock motor. To play up front in ITS in Sediv you're gonna have 12-15k in your car unless you're building your engine yourself. I might be low with that number.

We may have had a miscommunication. I was referring to the fast Chumpcar teams around here. They proved their pace at the National Chumpionship last year. If they're faster teams in the SE, we haven't seen them up here.

The point is still very valid that the Chumpsters are starting to look decidedly less "chumpy" and the costs/prep level are evolving rapidly. "$500 car" is more of a qualifier for the year/make/model than any reflection of the cars' true value. I think the pace of development is a result of the team-based structure. i.e. 4x the check writing capability, 4x people turning wrenches, 4x data collected and shared between drivers, etc.

[spawpoet]

We may have had a miscommunication. I was referring to the fast Chumpcar teams around here. They proved their pace at the National Chumpionship last year. If they're faster teams in the SE, we haven't seen them up here.

The point is still very valid that the Chumpsters are starting to look decidedly less "chumpy" and the costs/prep level are evolving rapidly. "$500 car" is more of a qualifier for the year/make/model than any reflection of the cars' true value. I think the pace of development is a result of the team-based structure. i.e. 4x the check writing capability, 4x people turning wrenches, 4x data collected and shared between drivers, etc.

Gotcha. I thought you were referring to the top ITS cars, not chumpcars. My bad.

[Flyinglizard]

Ijust put in the locked diff, light flywheel, T 3 turbo, water cooled brakes, 3.94 gear, fuel cooler, splitter,
The car is a 285$ car.. All legal .

[Spinnetti]

Ijust put in the locked diff, light flywheel, T 3 turbo, water cooled brakes, 3.94 gear, fuel cooler, splitter,
The car is a 285$ car.. All legal .

rrriiiiiiiight.... you know in chump, all that stuff is at market value, not at "I found it under my bench" value right? So I should be able to find all that stuff for $215 total?

[Knestis]

>> ... I think the pace of development is a result of the team-based structure. i.e. 4x the check writing capability, 4x people turning wrenches, 4x data collected and shared between drivers, etc.

That's an interesting thought...

K

[Ron Earp]

rrriiiiiiiight.... you know in chump, all that stuff is at market value, not at "I found it under my bench" value right? So I should be able to find all that stuff for $215 total?

Good luck. Last time I tried to find a worn out T3 for a project I never came up with anything under $70. That's 1/4 the $215 and some of that other stuff is expensive.

But of course, it isn't really street prices that count, it is what your "bill of sale" says you bought it for. Like when I sold a MM panhard rod to a kid for $300 but he wanted me to sign the Craigslist advertisement he made using my text and pictures but with a $60 price.

The whole $500 chump car premise is an effort to contain costs, but I don't really think it is all that effective. People use creative solutions to skirt the price point because after all, they are racers and push the rules boundary.

[Flyinglizard]

Ebay, "T 3 for parts, Bought for 17.13$
SVO intercoooler , bought for 21$.13
Chinese exhaust manifold, T 3, BF, 89$( had to redrilll and weld (
Oil line kit, both sides, BF 49$
2in EMT tubeing, 20$
2in EMT ,90 * bend, 17
Blow off valve, 20$
car is 200$. I have it around 400$.total
I used to rebuild the garrett T 3 / T 4, in my prior life. I have bits left over...
I have guys looking to get my AIV down under 100$ just because I hate the AIV thing.
I can play the no rules thing.
I want the car to roast both front tires coming out of the hairpin @ Sebring. I expect about 160- 170 real HP and maybe 200# TQ.@ 11psi.( based on Know good values)
Target lap times are 2:38. (With Michael S. driving.)
The current 120hp powerplant did about 2:48 for him and aboutr 2:52 for the rest of the team. MM
PS the biggest problem will be keeping the turbo cool on refueling stops. I hate to hot soak it 8 times a race. i am working on a mini accusump style of oiler to keep some flow for the 2 min of non running time.

[seckerich]

Expecting SCCA to change their rules to better cater to your business model----priceless.

[Flyinglizard]

Are you saying that Chumpcrap has no place in SCCA?

I am just hoping that SCCA can loosen up their butts enough to share in this huge market that has been presented.
The time is right for an Endurance series to accept these drivers and their cars. With some basic rules!!
Please tell me what you really think.

[downingracing]

Are you saying that Chumpcrap has no place in SCCA?

I am just hoping that SCCA can loosen up their butts enough to share in this huge market that has been presented.
The time is right for an Endurance series to accept these drivers and their cars. With some basic rules!!
Please tell me what you really think.

PLEASE STOP talking global and concentrate LOCAL! MANY SCCA regions DO HAVE a place for these cars to race - I posted the ITE rules earlier for my Division. If safety is really IT or better - Bring the rule book and come play! You do need to have a race license (not the one purhcased for $25 - But one that is accepted by the region/division putting on the event). Other than that - this is a non-issue. If your local region has an issue - GET INVOLVED and make changes. Having ITE added at the divisional level should be an easy-ish task and you are good to go.

** Now if you want an endurance race - we don't do those in my division (or not often at all). We fill up all the time we have in the weekend. Yes we have 'extra' time in the schedule for worker breaks and 'fluff' built-in to allow for issue 'cleanup'. All done to try and ensure everyone gets to have the race they came for. Other divisions are different - there may be an enduro series out there that fits what you're looking for.

[betamotorsports]

Here in calClub we've run a race withing a race. For a while the NCCC Corvette guys ran their race series within the ITE class/run group. They kept track of their own points and took care of their own tech (outside of the normal SCCA post race tech). I'm sure something similar can be setup for ChumpCar (assuming basic SCCA safety is met) in most regions.

[Ron Earp]

PLEASE STOP talking global and concentrate LOCAL! MANY SCCA regions DO HAVE a place for these cars to race - I posted the ITE rules earlier for my Division. If safety is really IT or better - Bring the rule book and come play!

True. NCR-SCCA hosts the 13 Hour Charge of the Headlight Brigade that has an ITE class. ITE in the NCR is basically any car that meets IT safety specs, not IT prep rules, but safety only. Therefore, you could run in what is arguably the East Coast's most prestigious amateur endurance event. I'm sure that if you get a few Chumpcars to show up and race that the SCCA will take notice.

[jumbojimbo]

...snip...The whole $500 chump car premise is an effort to contain costs, but I don't really think it is all that effective. People use creative solutions to skirt the price point because after all, they are racers and push the rules boundary.

The $500 chump car limit is a successful (so far) method of maintaining the perception of low cost. This is something that Lemons and CC have done successfully that SCCA fails at.

I know, I know, you don't HAVE to spend $10k on your chumpcar. But you don't have to spend big money to race an SCCA car either. As has been pointed out, IT and CC cars are not that different. All that crap about being able to cut the roof off and remover washer bottles and bolt on bigger brakes, etc is window dressing.

The big differences between SCCA IT and CC are the team-based enduro vs single driver sprint races and the perception of lower cost. Emphesis on perception. Actaully cost per mile between IT and CC is not that different. And I'm pretty sure "well funded" drivers who fly in to drive a race shop prepped CC are paying a whole lot more per hour of track time than I am to race my ITC Civic.

The one area that SCCA has the advantage is in actual wheel to wheel, hammer and tong, mano a mano, close quarters, competitive racing. And we do a poor job of promoting that part of our product.

[Spinnetti]

The $500 chump car limit is a successful (so far) method of maintaining the perception of low cost. This is something that Lemons and CC have done successfully that SCCA fails at.

I know, I know, you don't HAVE to spend $10k on your chumpcar. But you don't have to spend big money to race an SCCA car either. As has been pointed out, IT and CC cars are not that different. All that crap about being able to cut the roof off and remover washer bottles and bolt on bigger brakes, etc is window dressing.

The big differences between SCCA IT and CC are the team-based enduro vs single driver sprint races and the perception of lower cost. Emphesis on perception. Actaully cost per mile between IT and CC is not that different. And I'm pretty sure "well funded" drivers who fly in to drive a race shop prepped CC are paying a whole lot more per hour of track time than I am to race my ITC Civic.

The one area that SCCA has the advantage is in actual wheel to wheel, hammer and tong, mano a mano, close quarters, competitive racing. And we do a poor job of promoting that part of our product.

Jim, you've been very nice, and helpful (thank you), but at least from my experience have a few misperceptions. The simple fact for me is: SCCA has too many one-time and on-going barriers to entry that are not risk justified. It is also technically limiting, and there is too much smash and bash going on. Lemons IS cheaper to run up front and LESS risky than SCCA. It is a Non-Contact sport, which I LIKE. I also don't have to jump through licensing hoops, physicals etc, etc.... I can build what I want and drive hassle free. As an owner of competetive cars in both series, the "window dressing" is what I care about. My car is very conventional in build (if a huge 4 door automatic v8 sedan can be considered conventional), but I did it how "I" wanted to, not some dumb rule. My car is fast and I'm considering selling my IT car because of the window dressing that I care about. Lemons is every bit as competetitive as the SCCA and much less restrictive on barriers to entry - and plenty of pros show up to these. Come run one and find out. Fields of 3 cars are nothing like fields of 100 over 17-24 hours... totally different ball game and much more exciting test of man and machine. The "team wallet" concept is overblown. For the fast guys, its not even a factor anyway. I run up front for an investment of my work/talent and about $5400, and I'm as fast as anybody I've run with. I spend around $3,000 per event to run it, and to run up front with me it costs you $900 for about 4hrs of track time - How does that compare? If you get a total of 40 min of a SCCA race, it should cost in total (tow,fuel,amortized car,physical, license, dues etc) about $150 right? For those who aren't experienced at both, its just speculation. Right now, your "perception" is that they are junk and its not real competition - I can tell you that I think many of the cars in IT were junk when I ran regularly and its a smash fest compared to Lemons. I don't want to risk my pristine IT car anymore in the bash fest - I'm safer with my "junker" in lemons, which has only had one contact from an SCCA dips*&t in a CRX in about 100hrs or track time.

Don't get me wrong, SCCA has been my racing "home" since 1987. First in autocross then IT, but it has become often partipant inbred and lost the appeal because it stopped being fun. Its hard to have fun getting knocked around by big walleted yo-yos willing to risk your life in a crash for a $3 trophy. I was never a mid pack guy, and I'm not in Lemons either. SCCA needs to relax, reduce the barriers to entry and be more inclusive, but it'll never happen because the current crowed is too vested in the status quo. The market will decide and is already. Given a relatively stable % of people race, I'd be interested to see the trend in participation in Club racing, and plot that with the rise of NASA, Lemons and Chump. Are these conquest series or bringing new customers to the table? If new, maybe Lemons will be a feeder series to the SCCA, but as it is now I kinda doubt it.

[Greg Amy]

Please tell me what you really think.

You didn't ask me, but I'll offer the following: the only main problem I have with ChumpCar and Lemons is that they are fundamentally dishonest. Statements such as "The car is a 285$ car.. All legal" are, plainly and simply, a lie. You may be able to build that car for "$285", but you're twisting rules backwards and forwards and you have access to skills, resources, and parts that the general public does not.

For you to tell "Bob off the street" that he can go racing ChumpCar for $285 is an out-and-out fabrication. You disagree? Then I'll buy that car right here, right now, for $570 cash and you can go build two more of them just like it. Make it $600 so you have a little extra spending money, for inflation. Just tell me where to send that and where to pick up the cars.

Don't get me wrong: I like the concept. And I like the original, honest implementation of the concept when it began as LeMons years ago. But it's ranged so far from that original concept that it's completely unrecognizable.

SCCA has too many one-time and on-going barriers to entry that are not risk justified...I also don't have to jump through licensing hoops, physicals etc, etc...

I infer you mean things such as personal safety gear, as well as required vehicle safety gear? With that you have no disagreement from me; I'm well on record as saying it takes a good chunk of coin just to be able to walk up to someone and rent a car.

But the problem there is you're comparing apples-to-oranges. SCCA is a very large organization, with a lot at risk, a lot to lose. It's a big target. As such, it has to mandate a large amount insurance-required safety equipment as hedges against legal action (see recent addition of H&NRs).

LeMons and ChumpCar, on the other hand - as well as local roundy-round tracks and such - are not nearly the same size target and are thus not as attractive legal targets as SCCA is. So they can get away with lower levels of required safety equipment, because they're less likely to get sued. And if they do get sued, there's less at risk to lose.

If/when LeMons and ChumpCar becomes the 800-lb gorillas you can be assured that they won't be nearly as free-and-easy with minimum safety equipment standards as they are now (see: NASA, which used to be the low-end up-and-comer).

Its hard to have fun getting knocked around by big walleted yo-yos willing to risk your life in a crash for a $3 trophy.

And the more attractive these cars become, the more those "big-walleted yo-yos" are going to come a-callin'. Just as with the discussion about Improved Touring going National, the more attractive something becomes the more the money comes; it's called "first mover advantage". That's why you are spending $3000 per race.

It's not about the cars, guys. It's about being an immature series that's able to get away with some things that the larger organizations cannot. And it's very ironic that the more you try to tease people away from the bigger orgs in order the grow these, the more you are becoming exactly what you think you're running away from...

GA

[seckerich]

Chump car and Lemons are popular because there is a perception that you are out there racing against a huge field and can have bragging rights that you beat 200 cars. In reality only about 10% have a chance and are way more expensive than any $500 and are closer to the $10,000 - $15,000 quoted earlier. These are the haves that spend a few thousand more between them after each race to make it faster. I know, because I have built some of the parts. Not saying it is bad or good, just different.

Now blow smoke up our butts and call it the future of SCCA so special classes are created and special races added and we are now chumpcar, not SCCA. You have heard many times you can run the cars in ITE, or similar catch all classes. I would be all for a Track Time only class in SCCA where you meet IT safety rules and run what ya brung so to speak. A racer is a racer and should be welcome regardless of car choice.

Dump these cars in with some groups and it will be disruptive to those that invested their money to race the classes offered. I do agree that if you have a pulse and 5 cars NASA will create you a class. Pulse might not even be required.

[wepsbee]

Cant build a front running race car for $500. Do you ever change wear parts like bearings or tranny's. Is the $500 a one time cost, once a year or what. Do you change struts or shocks? These costs add up fast. Finding someone who truthfully sells you a running vehicle with all components operable for significantly less than $500 is just not real. Getting Bob down the street to sell you a car in this condition and just write a bill of sale for $200 is just dishonest. No one really believes this happens for real, everyone just winks and nods and ignores it. A drive what you bring series would be nice but there would have to be some separation between real fast and real slow cars to avoid the confrontations that wouls happen. Kinda like......SCCA already has.

[Flyinglizard]

I get little obsessed . I hate not winning,. I am building this car to try and force some rules and maybe generate a three class structure for the Chumps.
LCC;The real 500$ cars, basically any ITB or ITC level car. 4cyl stock brakes ,body etc. 205 tires

BCC; The next gen/class cars, are the 6cyl E 30, any miata, any jap 6cyl car about 200hp or less.205tires

CCX;The X class covers the can am cars, non fact boosted, cut bodies, engine swaps.
etc. 245 tires

( all tires are 190TW or higher. ) I would like to change to 180 to Use the Kumho XS or change to higher , 250 would be great and reduce the brake cost and tire cost. I run most of my cars on 300TW dunlops. DZ101.
The cars are serviced evry 20hrs for hub bearings, axles, oil, etc.
Pads last about 14hrs . They are new each race.
I under stand that some regions have the ITE. we dont and the tech guys just bitch, so we just go elsewere. We will run the Turbo Jett @ the PBOC 6 hr race ,next jan .and Ihope to have it checked out and running @ WGI july 25th.
Thanks for your input on this matter...
MM

[Spinnetti]

Greg, I see you "get it" and you are right on several points, but might misunderstand my intention. I'm not saying "dump SCCA and go Lemons", I'm saying "Learn from what they do well and emulate that"... I want to come back to the SCCA, but in a way that isn't going to waste all my free time and cost me a fortune every other season in belts, window nets, personal gear, hans, physicals ad nuseaum only to drive a car I couldn't build how I wanted.

You hit the nail on the head though that the d-bags will find lemons and chump and quickly ruin that too, and in fact its already underway. Last race had a huge field of giant motorhomes and expensive cars in the paddock, and more selfish/angry/entitled rich guys than even last year. Me and my racing buddies figure its got at most 4-5 more years at most before its lost its market advantage and isn't fun... its already creeping that way.

My $3k a race is 4 tires, front and rear pads, engine and tranny fluid change, rotors every few events, race car fuel and tow fuel. I have a big, heavy, thirsty V8, so its like $800 just in gas. I'm starting to build a small/light/non-miata crazy frankenstein roadster that will be much cheaper to run. That said, I paid $350 for the car, $19 for a new fan belt, about $100 in fresh fluids, $100 for junkyard shocks to replace the collapsed air suspension, $30 for a complete coil over kit with springs (all 4 corners) new from ebay (random china stuff with turns out has 800lb springs), and I splurged after the first race and put fresh spark plugs in and a stock factory air filter. From an "official" cost perspective, that was it. I also got $90 for the cats from the recycler, so yes, I really did build a sub $500 front runner (an endurance race is more than just car!). The rest of the money was in stuff that isn't counted - race seat, cage, fire bottle, belts, brake pads, tires and what not. What's most amazing is the shocks are blown (I have one decent stock replacement one), the engine has 250k miles on it and both it and the trans are untouched other than taking the smog equipement off. The tires are 190, but the thing is amazingly fast around the corners and great under braking. I realized I could spend a lot less and still have the same or more thrills along with more track time, and since most of the guys are also on blown shocks, worn out motors etc, the playing field is level enough.

All good things will come to an end, but right now, the Lemons ride is good.... SCCA leadership needs to figure out how to be more inclusive and lower cost if they want this market... when Lemons burns out (I think Chump will die off much faster as its closer to the SCCA), then something else will arise... its kinda like the birth and decay of nations or big corporations... the younger more agile will get the business unless the "old guard" finds ways to stay fresh...

[tom91ita]

Some of you know the $500 itc car crx lee bought. It had a cage etc in it. It took minimal work to get lemons ready. It could just as easily have gone SCCA racing except we would have needed crx fenders etc.

There are deals out there. And it is easier/cheaper to get them into lemons trim.

We are running for about $500 each. But two $500 payments pay the team entry. One pays for tires and the two owners "pay" with sweat equity. I have actually told the owner he Ned's to charge $600 to cover future costs for bearings etc. but since we are all Honda owners we pretty much are using up old stuff from our garages.