Chumpcars can run NASA !!

[downingracing]

... I want to come back to the SCCA, but in a way that isn't going to waste all my free time and cost me a fortune every other season in belts, window nets, personal gear, hans, physicals ad nuseaum only to drive a car I couldn't build how I wanted.

Car prep time is the same for any form of racing and will vary on the car you pick. My car requires almost 0 maintenance (Honda!). If you want to run an enduro series - you may be where you should be. SCCA doesn't have (in my area) many enduro races. And for the "cost me a fortune" - I think you've been miss-informed. Belts are good until Dec. of the expiration year so you get 3 years out of belts. (and they cost around $100 - so $33/yr for belts) Window nets don't expire. Helmets are every 10 years. The other personal gear is "replace as you need based on condition/use". The H&N device purchase is a one time thing too. And the Physical - Really?? You should be getting one of these every few years anyway - just take the form in and have them fill it out during that exam.

... My $3k a race is 4 tires, front and rear pads, engine and tranny fluid change, rotors every few events, race car fuel and tow fuel...

Wow! That is a big number for a race weekend (imho). Is that for Chump or SCCA?

... All good things will come to an end, but right now, the Lemons ride is good.... SCCA leadership needs to figure out how to be more inclusive and lower cost if they want this market... when Lemons burns out (I think Chump will die off much faster as its closer to the SCCA), then something else will arise... its kinda like the birth and decay of nations or big corporations... the younger more agile will get the business unless the "old guard" finds ways to stay fresh...

I guess if the goal is to go out and have fun on the cheap - this logic works. As stated before, as soon as someone willing to spend some 'real' money shows up, all the $500 front running cars are now worth about $250 in scrap. NASA has a 'more inclusive' business model. Bring them cars and they will make room for you! Of course, once your car counts fall off or someone else comes along with a better deal - you're out. Having rules around classes provides an opportunity to 'know what you're up against' and make choices along the way to get out of it what you're looking for.

I'm here to have FUN and enjoy a great weekend of racing with friends/family 5-6 times a year. I put in very little effort to car prep and even less to driver training! I spend way less time AND money than most and have MORE fun. To do that, I race a Honda in ITA. Car is very easy on parts and easy to drive. It gets parked in November and sits on the race rubber in the garage until May when I push the button (starts right up) and take it to the track. That first trip is probably 2 hours of car prep from nut/bolt check to fluid change to spray wax. Then for the rest of the season, I spend about 1 hour of prep time before every weekend to get the car ready to go. I'm not spending anywhere near $3k a race (way closer to $700-1k if you count all costs) to run towards the front of ITA.

Maybe things are different in the areas you guys/girls are in. SCCA around here is strong and hands down the BEST place to be for club racing. I've said it before and will say it again - SCCA is the ONLY club I'll run with for several reasons and I'm happy to discuss those reasons over beers!

[Flyinglizard]

The prep level and development cost is very high in Chumpcar if you want to win. The cars are a lot more than SCCA IT cars.
Each Chump race cost me about 3000$ per car, that includes the entry,fuel,tires, pads. etc. The prep is about 20 hrs per car.( after they have been developed to run for 14hrs.)

The SCCA cars cost about 400$ per weekend, entry, fuel, tires,.
The SCCA is a lot cheaper , $ wise, prep time wise is maybe 2hrs,eachrace and axles every 4.

Many SCCA drivers run Chump races because of the night racing and seat time. Night is where it is at for my teams.

[gran racing]

Night racing and a fun, low key event is why I did it.

[Spinnetti]

Matt,

Thanks for the replies.. Actually, when I ran my Toyota, I ran it the same as your honda. It was fast and an easy keeper.. Still could I suppose, but have to convert to B, and make changes to do that, hence my vacillating. Several years in a row, I want to hit an event, but to do that, I have to renew my scca license, then either do a drivers school or apply for a waiver, go get a physical, Check the latest rules and update stuff, buy new wheels, tires (to convert to itb (from ita) and belts and add 200# and buy a Hans. That's at least $3,000 to run a single sprint race... if you race constantly, the incremental changes are not a big deal, but when you've had a few years off and a class change, do you do all that stuff to run 1-2 weekends a year, or do you just show up and drive Lemons? I can't seem to convey it well, but when faced with those choices, my nice IT car still sits, and I've built a car for less than what it will cost me to run my IT car once, and have run 10 or so Lemons races (typically 2-3/yr). I just show up and drive. For me to run a $3,000 weekend, that's $750 per driver (4 drivers) or cheaper (if more drivers) for a top car, and that's for at least 4 hrs track time at least and all expenses including tow gas, so $187 per hr all inclusive... no way SCCA is cheaper than that, and I didn't have to jump through ANY hoops to get on track. The SCCA crowd doesn't seem to 'get it', but I can tell you lots of others do, and lots of SCCA guys are running Lemons these days faced with those same obstacles in SCCA...

I'd still like to run, but can't see pouring all that time an money to run a couple times a year. I'll run Lemons until that becomes a hassle then re-evaluate. By then though, I'll have sold my IT car for the garage space.... probably regret that later...

[gran racing]

Based on what you've said, I don't understand why you keep your IT car. Seems like a good way to earn some ride money.

go get a physical, Check the latest rules and update stuff, buy new wheels, tires (to convert to itb (from ita) and belts and add 200# and buy a Hans. That's at least $3,000 to run a single sprint race...

Sell your existing wheels, get some 6" wide ones from a junk yard. Buy some take-offs (tires), borrow belts and a HANS. I've been borrowing one from a couple of differen people for some of the similar reasons.

no way SCCA is cheaper than that, and I didn't have to jump through ANY hoops to get on track.

I like that SCCA doesn't just let anyone out on the track with me in w2w racing. I was absolutely not fond of the idea in ChumpCar that just anyone regardless of experience or doing a school could be out there on track. The physical? Is that really so bad? I asked my doc why in the world aren't they doing this stuff normally and it takes an SCCA license to really check me over.

ChumpCar / Lemons are a different product than SCCA, just like roundy-round is different from ChumpCar. Hell, when I asked how much it would cost to race and the guy said $25 I clarified twice that I wanted to race, and not just get in to watch the race. Yet again, it's a different product than ChumpCar. Oh, you want to compare popularity. LMAO.

[Knestis]

... I like that SCCA doesn't just let anyone out on the track with me in w2w racing. ...

Do you start to worry that maybe the club is just trying to protect them...?



K

[Spinnetti]

Based on what you've said, I don't understand why you keep your IT car. Seems like a good way to earn some ride money.



Sell your existing wheels, get some 6" wide ones from a junk yard. Buy some take-offs (tires), borrow belts and a HANS. I've been borrowing one from a couple of differen people for some of the similar reasons.



I like that SCCA doesn't just let anyone out on the track with me in w2w racing. I was absolutely not fond of the idea in ChumpCar that just anyone regardless of experience or doing a school could be out there on track. The physical? Is that really so bad? I asked my doc why in the world aren't they doing this stuff normally and it takes an SCCA license to really check me over.

ChumpCar / Lemons are a different product than SCCA, just like roundy-round is different from ChumpCar. Hell, when I asked how much it would cost to race and the guy said $25 I clarified twice that I wanted to race, and not just get in to watch the race. Yet again, it's a different product than ChumpCar. Oh, you want to compare popularity. LMAO.

Well, because I have the best stuff now. I wouldn't sell brand new panasports to get junk wheels. I'm proud of my car - its not just a means to an end, but an expression of my build and setup ability. Same reason I really don't want to sell it, but don't see great options in front of me. Its also got history as a Toyota Celebrity Challenge car, owned by the top guys both at Toyota and SCCA, my first race car etc... I can see you don't understand that convienence aspect, and that's ok, but customers speak with their dollars.. Up to the business if they want to listen with an open mind or not.

Clearly you've never raced Lemons... Those guys are better to race with than the SCCA crowd. I nearly set a track record in my first driver school and won my first race at IRP having never raced anything before, so I don't buy the noob argument. I've had one wheel mark in Lemons, but been hit hard once and completely totalled once (rear ended both times) in SCCA. If the SCCA had some no contact rules I'd be more likely to come back - I've seen some of jakes videos and the spec pinatas in action. I'd really be upset to have my car all jacked up by the demo derby guys - and I DON'T mean lemons.

I get that its a different product... but comparing products, its like saying Walmart and the local grocery store offer different product (what local grocery store you say?). We know who won that one. I like what the SCCA has to offer, its just gotten hard to deal with. All I'm sayin' is that it needent be so hard, and Lemons has proven that. Y'all ought to try it first then make valid comparisons on value/$. I'm not saying everybody go do Lemons, I'm saying make SCCA as easy as lemons and your field counts will go up, and we'll all enjoy the racing more.

[Ron Earp]

We're sort of going around in circles on this CrapCan topic. The thread started with this statement:

We ran with NASA last week @ Sebring.
" Chumpcars can run without any hassle".

To which a number of folks pointed out that chumpcars can run in some local SCCA regions, namely the Southeast/Florida as well as others. Therefore, if you wish to run your chumpcars in the SCCA then bring them out and show the SCCA crowd how popular and interesting the cars are. I suspect that if you turn up some new cars, faces, and model the SCCA will pay attention, at least at the regional level.

However, don't expect the SCCA to change the licencing requirements to fit chumpcar. The SCCA doesn't work like that and you fellows know full well as an organization the SCCA is slow to adopt new ideas - you wouldn't have started the thread if you didn't know that was the case.

Clearly you've never raced Lemons... Those guys are better to race with than the SCCA crowd. I'm not saying everybody go do Lemons, I'm saying make SCCA as easy as lemons and your field counts will go up, and we'll all enjoy the racing more.

I cut out some of your statement, but the jist of it is that you feel the SCCA is too difficult and the chumpcar model is superior. The SCCA isn't ever going to be "as easy as lemons", no way, no how. That might be at the detriment to the long-term viability of the club, but I don't think anyone who has posted on this thread thinks for one minute the SCCA "old-school" culture of licenses, national/regional class distinction, etc. is going to change. If the Lemons folks are better to race with, easier to race with, with better competition, then it sounds like you've found your racing home.

The SCCA is a duck. It walks, looks, and quacks like a duck. A dog you will not make it.

[Flyinglizard]

Spot on Ron,
We were/are hassled by the CFR crowd to no end. NASA is a welcome change. Cars are cars, they all cost a lot to run. Hassle value is the difference. MM

[webhound]

Oh man, I read all these threads with interest. I'm sort of dealing with these choices right now. Comp school is just a smidge out of the budget right now, although I do have an ITC car. I could borrow a HNR from a few different guys, so that cost gets taken out of the equation. One other consideration right now for me is the car counts, it looks like in NEDiv the ITC fields are thin, but I could convert to ITB pretty easily.

Not looking for answers here, but I think it's worth noting that even for a person with a race car, the budgetary issues are very real. I can run it with Chump in EC and defray some of the car's cost by renting seats, there really is no additional barrier to entry.

[Flyinglizard]

You can also remove the glass and run Chump, not EC. The issue is that you will be way slow.

[gran racing]

Well, because I have the best stuff now.

Obviously we don't do things that are rational or in many cases would make sense to anyone else. Same reason why you say that about the car sitting in your garage unused and not buying "not the best" wheels. Hey, I get it. Have my Prelude on the side of my house, won't be using it this year, might not be using it the following couple of years. Yet I still have not really tried selling it. Pretty much anyone who thinks about it logically thinks it's fairly foolish, which it is.

Clearly you've never raced Lemons...

No, but I have done ChumpCar and talked about my experience here and you'll see it was good overall. I did leave out how much contact there was at this event only because many swear that was a rare race weekend with them.

I get that its a different product... but comparing products,

You can't be everything to everyone. It just doesn't work.

but I could convert to ITB pretty easily.

ITB is great in the N.E. (biased opinion of course). Actually, IT in general is here. ITC like you said has pretty weak fields.

even for a person with a race car, the budgetary issues are very real.

For many people that's always going to be the case. I look at what just the travel cost to & from the Glen (from CT) is going to be in a few weeks.

I do genuinely like ChumpCar. If they were to show up at the Glen, Lime Rock, or Summit's main course I'd be much more motivated to find a seat.

[jumbojimbo]

Oh man, I read all these threads with interest. I'm sort of dealing with these choices right now. Comp school is just a smidge out of the budget right now, although I do have an ITC car. I could borrow a HNR from a few different guys, so that cost gets taken out of the equation. One other consideration right now for me is the car counts, it looks like in NEDiv the ITC fields are thin, but I could convert to ITB pretty easily.

Not looking for answers here, but I think it's worth noting that even for a person with a race car, the budgetary issues are very real. I can run it with Chump in EC and defray some of the car's cost by renting seats, there really is no additional barrier to entry.

I know you're not looking for answers, but I've thought seriously about running a CC event in my car. But think about this, if you run CC and rent the seats, that adds some additional complications. First, what happens when the car runs 8 laps and dies? Second, what happens when one of the other drivers balls it up?

Overall, the LEAST favorite part of racing for me is the maintainance and overhead associated with getting the car ready and to the track. If you rent your CC seats now you are setting yourself up to be a defacto team manager. Are you going to make enough money to make it worth that hassle and risk? And when the event is over, the car is used up and you're looking at a half season of maint. Ugh.

On the other hand, if you don't have the money to do a school, it might be a way to spend a little less and get more track time. And you just take a risk on the car breaking. Just be realistic about the costs and risks.

edit: also, if you did run CC, think about how much more prepared you'll be for school next year. Or, with a couple of races under your belt you could make a strong case for the alternate licensing process.

[Flyinglizard]

Web, (name?)
The SCCA school, is by far the best deal for track time that you will ever pay for. If you cant afford the 300-400$ school, how are you going to afford the 3000$ Chump race?
MM

[forestdweller37]

Oh man, I read all these threads with interest. I'm sort of dealing with these choices right now. Comp school is just a smidge out of the budget right now, although I do have an ITC car. I could borrow a HNR from a few different guys, so that cost gets taken out of the equation. One other consideration right now for me is the car counts, it looks like in NEDiv the ITC fields are thin, but I could convert to ITB pretty easily.

Not looking for answers here, but I think it's worth noting that even for a person with a race car, the budgetary issues are very real. I can run it with Chump in EC and defray some of the car's cost by renting seats, there really is no additional barrier to entry.

Webhound,
I run both Chumpcar and dabble in SCCA regional club racing. A CC weekend is a much bigger production than simply showing up with a car on an open trailer and a few tools. Figure in the canopy, more tools, tires, major spares, multiple fuel jugs, fuel drip pan, pit fire extinguisher, radios or pit board, many lawn chairs, provisions for 4-6 people, etc. If it's a 24, it only gets bigger. Heck, I take my Miata to SCCA Regionals to relax! Endurance racing really takes a toll on the car too! The maintenance, although maybe lower per hour of track time, is much more frequent. The speed differentials between ITC and the rest of your run group would be comparable to what you would experience taking the car as-is to a Chump race.

Jumbojimbo made the comment that some Chumpcar races would help prepare you for licensing school or make a case for alternate licensing. This is true, but in my case it worked the other direction. Another member of my Chumpcar team and I both went to separate SCCA licensing schools. The experience made us both much more comfortable and prepared us to handle racing in traffic at our next Chump race. The school still involves lots of track time, less "infrastructure investment", and makes for a great weekend at the race track.

-Chris

[webhound]

Web, (name?)
The SCCA school, is by far the best deal for track time that you will ever pay for. If you cant afford the 300-400$ school, how are you going to afford the 3000$ Chump race?
MM

The only/next school in our Div is likely going to be quite a bit more than 300-400. I'll probably look at one for early next year as an alternative.

Not doubting that you pay $3000 all in for your very competitive efforts, but I'm sort of thinking it should be more likely around $2000 for our team with the ITC Civic, perhaps a bit more including lodging and tow fuel. I have a lot of that money covered by the seat rentals. Sure, what's left over will be more than 300-400, but considering some of the expenditures will be able to be spread over the longer term, and considering the amount of seat time we'll all get, especially if you include a Friday test day, I think the value is still going to be pretty good.

Webhound,
I run both Chumpcar and dabble in SCCA regional club racing. A CC weekend is a much bigger production than simply showing up with a car on an open trailer and a few tools. Figure in the canopy, more tools, tires, major spares, multiple fuel jugs, fuel drip pan, pit fire extinguisher, radios or pit board, many lawn chairs, provisions for 4-6 people, etc. If it's a 24, it only gets bigger. Heck, I take my Miata to SCCA Regionals to relax! Endurance racing really takes a toll on the car too! The maintenance, although maybe lower per hour of track time, is much more frequent. The speed differentials between ITC and the rest of your run group would be comparable to what you would experience taking the car as-is to a Chump race.

-Chris

I've been autocrossing seriously for a while, so I've got a lot of the peripheral equipment, like fuel jugs, fire ext, canopy, tools, etc. I've also got a pretty good spares package ready for this car, including a fresh rebuilt trans and head, just need uprights ready with new hubs and bearings.

Will