Where to you locate an alternate engine?

[Greg Amy]

it's not that hard, just be big picture. place a reasonable restriction on the location and orientation of the engine....you are specifying an intent, egregious over-runs of that intent will be dealt with by competitors and will be obvious.

Bingo. Completely agree.

So that brings us back to the current reg. The current reg specifies an intent, and offers reasonable common-sense interpretation. It will NOT stop the guy that wants to play the "letter of the rules" game, but it will make the honest guys honest that understand and wish to comply with the spirit of the rules. If we start getting into body shop manuals, and plus-or-minus 1 inch, and coaxial location and all that, we're effectively codifying and inviting that "letter of the rules" game. And I just don't think that short of explcitly listing all allowed combinations with all possible engine permutations and detailing location of the same, along with a full team of educated technical inspectors to enforce it, that we can win that game.

We do have a request on the table to clarify this issue, but I don't think getting into minutiae is going to resolve it. - GA

[Knestis]

Been watching this conversation with some interest...

...and have come to agree with Greg that there's really only so much that can be done to contain this issue, in practical terms. How about the proposition that the confines of the engine bay, firewall, subframe, and bodywork will define practical (if not absolute) limits? Absent any provision to modify those elements, there's really only so much latitude for locating an alternate engine.

It's not like we can flip the entire engine around and tip it over like was done on some Euro touring cars, possible because it could be bolted to an aftermarket dog box...

K

[Chip42]

but you CAN bolt it to an aftermarket sequential and MAY use an adapter plate for any stock box or with a swap, and I see no reason that with allowed dry sump (even of 2 scavenge stages max) and and those allowances an engine could not be rotated, in some engine bays substantially (particularly for transverse engines). I think that's out of line with intent.

I don't write ST rules, so maybe I'm wrong. yeah, fine, unmodified engine bay/cradle/subframe but there will need to be some exceptiosn to allow instalation of a swap for mounts and pans and the like, so a clear "what we intend to allow here, play nice and no hanky pnaky please" clause is needed IMHO. I agree that a toleranced set of offset and setback dims is probobly too constrictive, but I'm going to hold firm on my oppinion about rotation of components.

engines have stock tilts all the time. that's easily documented with the required FSMs for the chassis and engine.

a rule that allows some degree of rotation from the stock orientation might be desireable. if so, make the allowance for it a hard limit, its easy to enforce. additionally, consider a rule to limit the position of the trans. something like trans must be located along the same in/output shaft axis as the stock for longitudinal engines, and axle flange/inner CV joint cup axis should be at the stock position relative to the crank for transverse / transaxle cars. consider the nominal references to be from the stock installed drivetrain.

end result is no rotated mils except as allowed for fitment and some axle alignment for transaxles. otherise it fits within the confines of the stock chassis structure with limits and allowances for modifications specific to allowing instalation of swaps such as notched subframes, relocated or fabicated chassis side motor mounts, clearancing of the inner fender walls and fire wall for manifolds and accessories, etc...

keeps the crazy down, specifies your intent with an understandable and tech-applicable set of rules, is relatively simple and concise, and allows for some freedom to be creative with swap fitment. and, if needed, it's protestable though liekly to go COA for a real ruling and yes, requiring confiscation and large bonds.