Voluntary RANDOM car inspections (oh my!)

[S2_ITBVW]

I may be talking to the wrong people, but I know for a fact that the people I’ve been “talking” to were/are racing at the front. It’s a moot point, but a couple of them hold track records that are currently still on the books. There is absolutely an attitude at all levels of motorsport where the competitors do everything they can to push the limits of the rules in order to get a little edge on the competition. I actually have less of a problem with it in Formula One and NASCAR where the teams are constantly at work to exploit gaps in the rules that are being monitored by professional scrutineers. I have more of a problem with folks who cheat in an environment like ours where no one is even looking most of the time (then they feel clever about it!).

I agree with all the folks who think there is a big difference between “cheating” and simply not knowing any better. Let’s face it, the GCR is a pretty thick rule book. Even with the very best intentions folks are going to make mistakes. More than once already I have discovered that something on my car is not quite right. Given my technical ineptitude, it’s very likely to happen again. I don’t want a situation where folks are going to get the rule book thrown at them, or have their weekend ruined, after they agree to participate in something like this. If something was “just not quite right” I would expect the person to make it right before the next race. Actually, I would expect that folks who have volunteered to have other folks look at their car would not likely be the ones to blatantly cheat. So, in a way, the exercise would be more a demonstration of compliance than an actual test. I actually envision the driver and his crew giving other competitors a “tour” of his/her car rather than having folks who don’t really know the car tear into it. Maybe there could be a checklist and the driver would just step through it while other folks watched and asked questions or (GULP!) even made suggestions or gave advice. This would not be aversive, could actually be enjoyable, and could be done in about 30-45 minutes while everyone was sipping on their favorite cold beverage. I don’t necessarily see this as something the race officials would be burdened with. I see it as something the drivers organize and participate in voluntarily.

Jerry, I guess I don’t have a deep enough knowledge of all the cars to know if this is as simple as popping off a valve cover and removing a wheel. I guess we would just have to agree on what makes sense for an exercise like this. I think any effort would make a difference.

It occurs to me that folks could claim that they don’t want to expose “technical secrets” during a process like this. I guess that could kinda/sorta be a justified concern . . .

Anyway, we all make a reasonably big investment to participate in this sport; and I would like to see more being done to promote a culture of compliance. What I see and/or hear about being done, typically, is nothing. I would love to figure out a way to do “something.” Open hoods may be a start . . .

[Flyinglizard]

Most cheating is done in the area of compression and moving air. Cam, intake, ports and deck height are all areas that the front runners have maxed out, or a little over.
Nothing inside the engine is a tech secret. These engines are supposed to be stock, and appear stock.
10hp can be gained by maxing out the specs, or building where there are no specs. Block deck, piston to wall clearance, ring gap, ring style. retarding cam timing,etc.Using aftermarket valve springs, adding shims under the springs. All this has been approved over time, because of lack of factory specs.

My Book states that if the rules are not ever checked, than the rule has no value and all of the front running cars will have shifted to the new rule set.

Announcing that the valve covers will be removed in post race, will help. IMHO. A compression check will help.
The facts are, that this is hobby level race group. No one cares who wins. The rules are treated that way.

Go and run the local oval track, if you want rules enforced.. We had the car inpieces each week. Eventually the tech guy started marking our stuff with QC tech crayon so that he would not go over the same parts twice.
The oval track rules are easily enforced. Vac rule for any cams, no porting . etc. makes it quick and defined.

[S2_ITBVW]

I'm good with it. If I thought folks would be enthusiastic about a process like this I would dive in and try to get something going, but that's not the case. It's nice to discuss stuff like this though . . . keeps the juices flowing!

DE

[almracing]

I can assure you that most of the front runners don't cheat........ I know it gets discouraging but you gotta work on developing yourself and your car and not worry about what other people are doing or saying..............

Definitely great advice from Jeff. Seat time is king. Build the car to the rules and get on the track. The front runners are not wandering the paddock asking other people what they are doing... they are figuring it out on the track.

[seckerich]

Ok, now take a look at the newly added second line in my sig and tell me step by step how to verify the compliance of the cam you just dropped paper on without doing at least a partial tear down of the protested car.

Should have put a smiley face Jerry, just kidding you. Every form of racing has those that cheat, those that are convinced they are the next F1 driver that is only getting beat because everyone else is cheating, and those that play by the rules and get satisfaction from winning legal.

Tear everyone apart and be jerks and they go elsewhere. Sometimes it takes a teardown to restore balance, but it is never fun and feelings are always hurt. Big races you know teardown is coming and that is part of it. Hard to send someone home with their motor in a box and see them racing again soon. Tough call either way.

[Flyinglizard]

If we looked at one little thing every race, things would settle in some. The look under the hood,or VC, should not scare anyone off or piss them off.
Just do it to the top 3 or4, every time, so that it is standard op.[
The most honest, want rules enforced.IMHO. <<MM

[jhooten]

Cheating is a personal integrity issue. Voluntary compliance levels in all aspects of society today are much lower now than at any time I can remember. I can remember when the attitude was I want to win because I prepared and performed better than the other guy, instead of win at any cost the rules be damned.


I have no problem with open hood impound. I think it would be of limited effectiveness in finding the cheaters. But if it makes everyone feel better.

Let's play what if. Assume that just by pulling the valve covers to see the cam would reveal the status of the parts. On the randomly chosen car, every thing is determined to be compliant, the cover screwed back down, and the vehicle is released from tech and allowed to race on Sunday. During the process the gasket is torn and nobody notices. During the Sunday race enough oil has leaked from the torn gasket that it begins to drop on the header and the car starts to smoke heavily. The meatball is shown to the driver and he has to give up his class leading position to answer the meatball. His car was found to be compliant and through no fault of his own his race is ruined. Is it fair? Who is responsible for his ruined race? What should be the remedy?

Remember actions have consequences.

Steve,
I though you might have been jerking the chain but it appears my calibration has been a little off lately. Or it could have been the battery was dead in my hearing aid and I didn't really hear what you wrote correctly.

[TStiles]

Back in the early 90's we had a perception issue with cheating , rough driving , and lots of hard feelings between Spec Racer competitors in SW Division.

We got Bob Gelles ( RIP Bob ) to be our steward. Bob made sure every car went across the scales after qualifing , seals were checked , rough driving received a stewards action , top 6 cars had something checked after every race , all cars had something checked some weekends ... Before long the perception of cheating was the exception and not the rule ... Not long after that the rough driving calmed down ... The next thing you know , the man drama was history.

Bob did a great job for the Spec Racer community. It was a much better place to race after he set the tone for one season.

If you think your division has a problem , get yourself a Bob Gelles for a season or two.

[CRallo]

Tell people to bring a V/C gasket and head gasket... Or even a whole set.

[Z3_GoCar]

The actual legality of cams is almost impossible with SCCA,IMHO. You would need a KGV for each car. And the cam centerline is a non tech item .
Just removing valve covers is enough for most. The non part # cams go away fast. IMHO.

And how does that deal with swapped oe cams and regrinds? A really interprizing cheater might even machine the oe markings on his aftermarket cam.

We had a protest upheld a few years ago, but it wasn't for a motor part. A top finishing 1st gen Rx-7 had the dealer installed hatch spoiler on his car. He left the region rather than take it off.

[Flyinglizard]

Like I said, the actual legality of cams is really hard if you are looking at a car that you are not familiar with.
Google up Super Stock cheatercams. They got so bad that theyjust allowed any cam thatmet the max lift rule. for the same reasons. The fact books dont have the cam profile numbers. Just the max lift and toss values. Tech has to make their own cam profile windows like is done for the SM cars.
Pull the VC on Sun post race, if they pass good, if they dont, toss em for the whole weekend.

Announce the proposed action pre race,see if anyone shows up.

I took my Son's ITB car to Prod so that I can run free tires and my 4130 axle cages.
MM

[Ron Earp]

It seems to me some cursory checks could be done such as a compression check and cam inspection. I assume the compression can at least be checked somewhat with one of the frequency measuring devices and isn't very obtrusive at all. Maybe it isn't accurate to 0.05 compression points, but it seems to be accurate to a tenth or two, which should be sufficient.

Valve lift isn't too difficult, and while not the same as checking the cam with a cam machine, it is better than nothing. Valve lift can be done with a dial indicator and is quite simplistic to do - valve cover off, secure indicator, and turn the motor over.

I'm assuming that these sorts of things are already done at the ARRC and probably wouldn't be too hard to implement. Other items that could be easily inspected are flywheel material and gear ratios.

Rotaries are a bit left out in the cold here as there are no easy checks there (dredge up that old thread where we discussed rotary tech inspection: https://improvedtouring.com...ry+tech&page=2) but such is life. Some checking of some cars is better than nothing.

R

[jhooten]

valve cover off,
R

[Ron Earp]

The original poster asked about the possibility of some trackside inspections. Folks have weighed in with their opinions and possible procedures. You disagree with some of them, but the cam-check scenario doesn't have to play out like you wrote with such a dire outcome.

There are plenty of ways to cheat a cam that a won't be detected in a valve cover off check at the track so it is of limited usefulness, but at least the valve lift can be checked which is better than nothing.

R

[ShelbyRacer]

There are plenty of ways to cheat a cam that a won't be detected in a valve cover off check at the track so it is of limited usefulness, but at least the valve lift can be checked which is better than nothing.

R

Along with rocker ratio (would show up with lift I guess) and the ferrous-ness of the valvetrain components...

[gran racing]

If I thought folks would be enthusiastic about a process like this I would dive in and try to get something going, but that's not the case.

I'm not sure anyone here said that they're againt further compliance checks. In fact, it's something many of us have advocated here before. Without at least some being done, it makes the temptation greater to push the boundaries.

That said, it does take people to actually man up and walk the talk. Hell, take a look at Lime Rock's upcoming race event thread and lack of tech inspectors for that event. It will be tough enough for them to manage a regular simple day without considering doing any further checks. I think you'll receive support here and from other competitors as long as things are handled in a nice, fair, and respectful manner.

Like I said, the actual legality of cams is really hard if you are looking at a car that you are not familiar with.

I've looked into doing cam checks for another car before. I then discovered that for the BMW 2002 the cam is NOT easy to remove and actually takes a fair amount of work. Ugg. Then it made me curious about a few other cars...including my own. Where one gets a new OEM '87 Honda Prelude si cam is beyond me. That's what is needed to do a true cam check per SCCA rules as National doesn't have all of the specs to run with it.

[Matt93SE]

Don't worry about my valve cover leaking, Jerry. My front main seal and oil pan gaskets leak more than my valve cover gasket.

I also keep a spare Valve cover gasket in the trailer. they're like $20 from the dealer. it's quick and easy to pull the VC, and any smart racer should have a spare in their toolbox for that just-in-case moment.


To comment on the jist of the thread, I may only run mid-pack, but I make a serious effort to make sure every modification to my car is 100% legal. If it's questionable, I don't do it until I write the CRB and ask for clarification. In almost every case, the CRB has changed/added wording in the GCR based on my inquiries. sometimes it was to explicitly disallow what I wanted, other times it was to allow it.

All that said, I'm happy to open my hood and pull a valve cover for anyone that thinks my 130,000 mile STOCK UNTOUCHED engine is illegal for STU.

[jhooten]

On the Supra it was the Front Main, The rear Main, the cam tower seals, the rear cam seals, just about everything but the valve cover.

Ron,
There is another aspect of your minimally invasive check that you may not be taking into consideration. Just small bore IT would be nine cars. You will be lucky to have two people available in tech to do the check. Impound last 30 minutes then the yard has to be cleared for the next race group. IF the crews pull the valve cover before the two tech people get there, the tech people have to set up the indicator, rotate the engine by hand, remove the indicator 9 times. Say you have a good tech guy who can do all that in 5 minutes you are 15 minutes over. Now at your home track you may have a separate covered impound area for each group, I don't. I've one small impound area out in the Texas sun. I would love to be able to tear down every car every time and catch anyone who cheats, but we have limits that we have to work around.

But here is an idea that may help us better be able to more thoroughly and quickly check more cars, GET YOUR TECH LICENSE and help out. You know how many licensed tech inspectors were at Lone Star's last race? ME!

The only thing I can tell you is you have to be a little more proactive in the self policing department. You cannot depend on the understaffed tech crew to catch everyone. IF you think someone is cheating pony up and drop paper. Be prepared to follow through with the tear down bond if the stewards deem one necessary.

OKAY, I'm off my soap box.

[Knestis]

>> ... The only thing I can tell you is you have to be a little more proactive in the self policing department. You cannot depend on the understaffed tech crew to catch everyone.

None of the problems you've described - from shorthanded tech sheds to smoking cars - is resolved by us applying the current "self policing" process. I throw paper; you have to deal with it.

What I got from the OP, and ideas like open-hood policies, is the idea of crowdsourcing some basic compliance pressure, so we can take the load off of the tech folks.

K

[jhooten]

Pulling valve covers is far from a simple open hood policy.

Actually you throw paper the stewards have to deal with it. I just do the checks they ask me to do based on the protest.

IF open hood impound is something that is desired by the community somebody write the letter asking for it.

Per the GCR three items must be checked. Here is the SOWDIV impound procedure in a nutshell.
First is Weight.
Second is a performance item.
Third is a Safety type item.
Depending on who the chief Stew is he/she will or delegate the tech stew to make a tech plan for the event. Tech is only allowed to check for those items on the tech plan in post race (we do not do post qualifying) tech. If there is a plainly visible non-compliant item on a car in impound and that item is not on the tech plan, unless some makes a protest, oh well. Not my choice that is the way the current management in the division want it.

Soon, I hope, race car V2.0 will be completed and I will go back to being inspected by tech instead of being the tech inspector. Anybody else care to step up and take on the job? Didn't think so.