What does a SCCA IT race car look like...

[TStiles]

Really??? The fastest way to get a license is to do the SCCA 2x school weekend and you've got a novice permit to go racing!! How much easier should it be? One weekend of your time and you can go racing. There are schools all over the country and lets call it Thursday evening to Monday afternoon to get there and get back. You can travel +/-750 miles in that time and do the school. This is 2 days off work and a weekend of time to go from no license to having the novice permit and going racing! Might not be a school in your back yard, but this is the upcoming schedule for drivers schools per the SCCA website:

6/8/2012
Summer School/School's Out at Lime Rock Park
Lime Rock Park
New England Region

7/21/2012
Drivers School/Regional/PDX/TES at Sebring-Short Course
Sebring International Raceway
Central Florida Region

8/4/2012
Drivers School/Test Day/SARRC at Atlanta Motorsport Park
Atlanta Motorsport Park
Atlanta Region

10/4/2012
Last Chance of 2012 Driver School/Regional with Enduro at Watkins Glen Int'l
Watkins Glen International
Glen Region

Atlanta is the closest of these to Houston , last time I did the Atlanta tow was to the Runoffs and it was something like 14 hrs. Not too many new racers are going to make that tow when they can tow 1.5 hrs to the NASA Comp School .

If they are larger budget guys the MSRH school is another option , but that's $$$

[downingracing]

...
I'm sorry, but if I'm new to this game and on a modest budget my incentive to participate goes way down with the thought of traveling that far away. I'd probably also want to do it at a track I've driven before.

I can appreciate that view - But the other side of that is for my first school (and on a modest budget), I went to Summit Point (350 miles away) and had never turned a single lap on a race track (any track - ever). I wanted to get my competition license and this was the first of Two schools required at the time. I did this school in the fall and the school (closer to home) at Nelson in the spring. Then started racing 4-8 weekends a year and have been since 1999.

I wanted to go racing and did what I needed to do to get my license. I wasn't spending big bucks (FAR from it), but for all the expense of a race weekend/drivers school - the cost of the tow isn't even a set of race brake pads (for a truck and open trailer - even at $3.75/gal). If you've got a motorhome and enclosed trailer - you are not running with a modest budget.

[TStiles]

Just curious... for areas where both NASA and SCCA run events on the same tracks, how do the entry fees compare?


.

Typical SW Division races are $ 450 - $ 500 ... We run 1 Q session and 1 Race session per day.

I think NASA Texas races are $ 300 - $ 350 ... I think they run 4 short sessions on Sat and 3 on Sun

I've never run a NASA event , but I've taken a hard look at it. If the IT type classes
( PT ) were stronger and not running with SM , I would not hesitate to run with them

Looks like we are in the middle of a market share shift in Texas
- SCCA entries appear to be down again
- SCCA IT has gotten very weak down here
- NASA entries for SM have been 2x what SCCA SM have been
- ChumpCar had 50+ cars for the 24 hour race a couple of weeks ago

I've been running SW Division SCCA off and on since 1987 , It's were I want to run , but the market for new racers needs to change for us to remain a viable option for large numbers of new racers that are vital for a sustainable club.

[Cobrar05]

Been down but a decent uptick this year. I think we had 100 entries at school in 2003, my school year. Under 40 for the last several but up to just over 50 this year.

Economy and Chump/Lemons I think are driving the numbers down. I see Chump/Lemons as a fad. It won't go away but it's popularity will die down as it sorts itself out into the haves and have nots as all popular series do (SRF....SM....Spec E30...IT).

We have a lot of customer service issues to fix, but if the racing stays like it was this weekend at CMP, I'm staying SCCA. Good friends, well prepped and driven RACE cars without cows on the roof, driven to the max, balls out for a 30 min sprint race. That's my personal preference for racing and SCCA delivers.

this weekend was the two sides of the scca. 4 races for the small bore cars. 2 races for the v8 cars. i saw what? 8 v8 cars in their group. the turnout overall was down, was it not? and....when the racing was good, it was very good.

business was solid for a photographer. the atmposphere was nice. i was sold on building an inexpensive ITS Mustang while at the same time sold that bringing my FR500C to an SCCA event is a waste of time.

its funny. i talked to ricky about buying a SM or even his spare ITR BMW. i tried to learn all i could about the v6 mustang program. at the same time saw not a single car in my class at the event.

[JeffYoung]

Overall turnout for the CMP Memorial Day races was down but has been up at the other races I've run this year at VIR.

SCCA's rule set is more structured, as you have found out. Someone explained it thusly to me:

1. SCCA: We write the rules and you build the car to the rules.

2. NASA: You build the car and we write the rules to allow it to run.

V8 cars have a lot of places to run in SCCA but it is structured. Your car has a few places but they are limited, I agree.

Ricky's BMW is well done by the way.

[jhooten]

downracing,

I can tell you a much easier way. Run a couple chumpcar/lemons races then ask the SCCA divisional licensing administrator for a novice license.

[gran racing]

I totally appreciate that and many of us did what ever it took to make it. However, how many people are willing to make those sacrifices? Multiple days off from work, long tow, unfamiliar track which can make the school even more intimidating, time away from home (potentially a not enthusiastic wife; maybe kids).

NASA does, or at least did, a great job incorporating the schools into their raceweekend. It makes it more attractive to partipate.

We talk about how car counts are down. Not sure why regions couldn't fill one or two sessions with HPDEs. It's pretty obvious that SCCA needs to modify it's structure a bit and how events are held.

Upcoming HPDE at Lime rock has been sold out for a bit now. $345 for one day, 4 sessions per driver, 3 groups plus one for instructors. There are people out there willing to pay for track time.

I can tell you a much easier way. Run a couple chumpcar/lemons races then ask the SCCA divisional licensing administrator for a novice license.

That's the problem. We continue to sell people on SCCA's program, suggest they go somewhere else to get started, and expect them to come back. A person starts in chump/lemons, makes friends, has a good time... They're probably going to stay there for a while.

[downingracing]

downracing,

I can tell you a much easier way. Run a couple chumpcar/lemons races then ask the SCCA divisional licensing administrator for a novice license.

How is that easier? One long weekend and you're done vs. 2-3 weekends (at maybe less of a tow, but still not cheap) and then try to get a novice permit on that experience?

Around my neck of the woods - we do not have time on a race weekend for a school or even a PDX. Race weekends are full of race cars and races. PDX days are done on Friday and are often full. I'm not seeing the issues othes are seeing in their regions. I guess the answer may be to have some choices/options based on where you are... Not a one-size fits all model for everything. Things don't seem to be broken around here so maybe that is why I can't see value to the changes...

And my .02¢ - I would never recommend one of these other groups for someone to run with. I've got my reasons and am happy to share them in person over beers. I know that means that the day the S club goes away - I'm done with racing and I'm OK with that. That is why I'm involved and doing what I can with my club to make events a success.

[TStiles]

I guess the answer may be to have some choices/options based on where you are... Not a one-size fits all model for everything. Things don't seem to be broken around here so maybe that is why I can't see value to the changes...

Agreed ... The club appears to be healthy in some regions / divisions and weak in others. I think it's always been that way , but maybe more of a challenge these days.

I spent a long time doing turnarounds , and I learned long ago that every market is different and what works in one part of the country may not work in another.

Glad your division is strong

[spawpoet]

NASA does, or at least did, a great job incorporating the schools into their raceweekend. It makes it more attractive to partipate.

We talk about how car counts are down. Not sure why regions couldn't fill one or two sessions with HPDEs. It's pretty obvious that SCCA needs to modify it's structure a bit and how events are held.

CFR is doing just what you are suggesting with their two schools. The Daytona school is run in conjunction with a PDX. They just use a tiny infield course so it's perfect for PDX, but wouldn't be so hot for a regular Club Racing event. When they do the school on Sebring short course they have the school sessions, PDX sessions, a vintage group, and a Spec car (SM/SRF) enduro. When I ran the school they had several experienced racers who wanted track time mixed in with our run groups, and I know it really helped me pick up lines. IMHO I'm not sure why SCCA has traditionally run schools as completely stand alone events. There's no reason you can't mix at least some race group sessions in with them.

[jumbojimbo]

...Around my neck of the woods - we do not have time on a race weekend for a school or even a PDX. Race weekends are full of race cars and races....

Sometimes. It is true in GL that if we run 6 run groups there is no room for PDX/school. But we don't always have enough cars to justify 6 run groups. I think we ran 4 run groups at Nelson once last year. That still doesn't free up enough time to stick in a PDX, but it is close.

The problem with that model is that it jams a whole bunch of race classes together. Some people would say too many. I would agree with that, I would avoid a regional weekend (grand am at MO is an exception) where all of IT were in one group. My class would never get to race with each other, fun would be low. And don't bother trying to sell me on how fun it is to race ITS cares running ITC lap times.

There might, might be room for a PDX in some race weekends, but it will negatively impact the customers we already have. I don't mind sacrificing a little for the good of club, but I'm not interested in giving away 70% of my fun on a regular basis.

Also, the races that might have room for a PDX are not at the tracks that will attract PDX people. Mid-Ohio races don't have room, Nelson might. Several times they have tried PDX's with races at Nelson and gotten low single digit car counts. You aren't going to get Corvettes and Ferraris at Nelson. You aren't going to have room for for PDX at MO.

[Cobrar05]

Overall turnout for the CMP Memorial Day races was down but has been up at the other races I've run this year at VIR.

SCCA's rule set is more structured, as you have found out. Someone explained it thusly to me:

1. SCCA: We write the rules and you build the car to the rules.

2. NASA: You build the car and we write the rules to allow it to run.

V8 cars have a lot of places to run in SCCA but it is structured. Your car has a few places but they are limited, I agree.

Ricky's BMW is well done by the way.

if ricky is going to take a car to charlotte in august, i may see about taking one of his cars on a rental to run under the lights.

here's what i dont understand. world challenge gt, gts and tc, trans am, and mx5 cup are scca pro racing. there should be a matching class in club racing for these cars to run as a ladder from club racing to pro. that i could buy any of those cars except a trans am/gt1 car and not have an established class to run the car in makes absolutely no sense.

[jhooten]

How is that easier? One long weekend and you're done vs. 2-3 weekends (at maybe less of a tow, but still not cheap) and then try to get a novice permit on that experience?

No classroom, No GCR test, No course walks. You have the others on your team to help prep and maintain the car, which you probably do not own. You have a few full time mentors instead of a guy who comes up after the session and offers a 30 second critique before heading back to the AC. You don't have to drive (to La Junta or Hallett) for 12 to 20 hours to attend a school or wait for a year or two until there is one closer.

Face it an SCCA "school" is not a learning event. It is a written test and a few sessions of remote viewing to determine if the "student" is semi-prepared and could be granted a novice permit. There is very little teaching done at one.

[dickita15]

Face it an SCCA "school" is not a learning event. It is a written test and a few sessions of remote viewing to determine if the "student" is semi-prepared and could be granted a novice permit. There is very little teaching done at one.

There are a lot of good points to think about in this thread and a lot SCCA can learn in order to do it all better but I have to comment on this one. If that the way schools you have been to are run they are doing it wrong. While it is true that most students these days have track experience there is lot of learning going on in the schools around here. There are observers on every corner giving feedback every session and multiple on track instructors pushing and probing students to give them experience situations it would take years to be in otherwise.

[downingracing]

No classroom, No GCR test, No course walks. You have the others on your team to help prep and maintain the car, which you probably do not own. You have a few full time mentors instead of a guy who comes up after the session and offers a 30 second critique before heading back to the AC. You don't have to drive (to La Junta or Hallett) for 12 to 20 hours to attend a school or wait for a year or two until there is one closer.

Face it an SCCA "school" is not a learning event. It is a written test and a few sessions of remote viewing to determine if the "student" is semi-prepared and could be granted a novice permit. There is very little teaching done at one.

I don't know how schools are done where you are... Around here - there is plenty of teaching and learning going on at a school. And the classroom and GCR test are (again - around here) good to review flags, procedure and have some basic conversations about racing and the 'line'.

It sounds like wherever you are really needs a lesson in 'how to do it' when it comes to school and licensing. Even with low(er) turnouts at schools around here recently, the quality of instruction is top notch.

If someone is looking to put out a very little bit of money and very limited time - then one of those other methods are probably fine (if they overlook all the shortcomings of those groups). If they are even remotely serious about racing - they will purchase a car, go to a school and get a license. It is nice to race close to home, but travel for a hobby is not a big deal. If it is - you are in the wrong hobby. Heck - We travel 4-8 hours for travel sports for the kids weekly.

I would never recommend any other group for someone to race with. That is my view and I know others have a different view. (and that is fine)

[TStiles]

No classroom, No GCR test, No course walks. You have the others on your team to help prep and maintain the car, which you probably do not own. You have a few full time mentors instead of a guy who comes up after the session and offers a 30 second critique before heading back to the AC. You don't have to drive (to La Junta or Hallett) for 12 to 20 hours to attend a school or wait for a year or two until there is one closer.

Face it an SCCA "school" is not a learning event. It is a written test and a few sessions of remote viewing to determine if the "student" is semi-prepared and could be granted a novice permit. There is very little teaching done at one.

Great points Jerry

I've instructed at SCCA schools and at HPDE schools. I can assure you , my students from an HPDE weekend are better prepared to be on track than my SCCA school students ever were.

With The Driver's Edge HPDE , the green students are in the classroom after almost every session with excellent instruction , they have an instructor in the car , they get written feedback , ect. The only thing they don't get is open passing and practice starts.

Today's new blood is questioning our SCCA process that requires buying / renting a safety compliant car , full safety gear , medical exam , traveling long distances , ect. before they can even go on track ... That system worked when we were the only game in town , but today's new blood has typically been to multiple HPDE's , are often just as quick as the SCCA licensed drivers , and have a solid understanding of what's going on ... The answer might be for SCCA to accept the HPDE / Chump / Lemons guys & gals on track experience and require a ground school that is SCCA specific.

Any way you slice it , we need to figure out how to lower the barriers to entry.

[red986s]

Today's new blood is questioning our SCCA process that requires buying / renting a safety compliant car , full safety gear , medical exam.....

Is that because of the insurance/lawsuits? It's my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, that NASA, Lemons, Chump etc. don't necessarily have the same coverage SCCA does.

[seckerich]

SCCA has approved "alternate driver schools" for this year where an approved coach can give the GCR test and work with students at a test day, etc to get them licensed. The national office is getting it and is working with regions to make it easier to race with SCCA. CCR has already held one and will do more as students want to get racing. Talk to your local RE.

[jhooten]

There are a lot of good points to think about in this thread and a lot SCCA can learn in order to do it all better but I have to comment on this one. If that the way schools you have been to are run they are doing it wrong. While it is true that most students these days have track experience there is lot of learning going on in the schools around here. There are observers on every corner giving feedback every session and multiple on track instructors pushing and probing students to give them experience situations it would take years to be in otherwise.

I went to SCCA Schools in three different divisions either for myself or as "crew" for someone else. They were all done the same way.

Study the GCR before you arrive.

2-3 hour classroom session on Friday evening consisting of what to expect during the school, how an SCCA event normally progresses, flags, some GCR, and filling out paperwork.

Open book GCR/flag written test Friday evening.

Satuday morning course walk with your instructor. Then two or three on track sessions consisting of different flagging situations and how you responded to them followed by a short debriefing with your instructor. Each instructor averaged about five "students" limiting the amount of time that could be spent with each.

Another on track session followed by a "Practice" race in the afternoon. Then a meeting in the classroom with the Chief Steward followed by individual meetings with the CS to be told if you passed and would be given a novice permit and allowed to race in the regional on Sunday or be required to attend another school.

From the times I have worked tech at schools over the years I have not seen much change in the format. No, I won't name names or point fingers.

[Terry Hanushek]

Jerry

I went to SCCA Schools in three different divisions either for myself or as "crew" for someone else. They were all done the same way.

Study the GCR before you arrive.

2-3 hour classroom session on Friday evening consisting of what to expect during the school, how an SCCA event normally progresses, flags, some GCR, and filling out paperwork.

Open book GCR/flag written test Friday evening.

Satuday morning course walk with your instructor. Then two or three on track sessions consisting of different flagging situations and how you responded to them followed by a short debriefing with your instructor. Each instructor averaged about five "students" limiting the amount of time that could be spent with each.

Another on track session followed by a "Practice" race in the afternoon. Then a meeting in the classroom with the Chief Steward followed by individual meetings with the CS to be told if you passed and would be given a novice permit and allowed to race in the regional on Sunday or be required to attend another school.

From the times I have worked tech at schools over the years I have not seen much change in the format. No, I won't name names or point fingers.

I must concur with Dick that the schools you have experienced are not very good examples. You have outlined the basic structure of a traditional two day drivers school. What is missing or not reported is the amount of classroom time during the event. My experience with schools at Summit Point, Pocono and NJMP is there is at least as much classroom time during the day as there is track time. The sessions provide instructor feedback, presentations of technique and discussions of race craft - all aimed at preparing students to drive better in competition (RACE). Your student / instructor ratio is really out of whack with my experience - I have seen many of our schools with a 1:1 ratio and never more than 2:1.

I also echo Steve's comment that alternate drivers schools are being developed to address the recent trend of prospective drivers with considerable driving experience at track days. I believe that just about every racing region in NEDiv is in the process of establishing this type of school. One positive example that SCCA is adapting to the current reality.

YMMV

Terry