What does a SCCA IT race car look like...

[ITEGT]

... after the last race of the '11 MiDiv season is cancelled, the first race of the '12 season is a 700 mile tow one way with a $450 entry fee, the IT race group is only invited to Saturday @ Hallet/National racers only on Sunday and the region excludes IT from the July Heartland Park event all together?

That SCCA race car now looks like this.







Anthony

[Alain V.]

AMEN BROTHER!!!!! F**K the SCCA!!!!! I haven't posted here in a loong time,,,mainly because I got sick of their crap, sold my racecar and started doing "track days" and other club events. Maybe when there's only two or three 90 year old v driver's left in their organization, they'll wake up and realize that all the grassroots guys are gone NASA and other club racing. Alain Vanhollebeke FORMER SCCA mid div driver of the black/green mercedes 190e, #9 ITE

[Greg Amy]

Am I the only one that finds it immensely entertaining that a couple of guys that proclaim to hate the SCCA read - and spend time to respond on - a web site devoted exclusively to an SCCA category...?

[zchris]

Poeple that are angry, tend to like to slam the door hard on there way out. I've noticed over the years, that poeple that are leaving racing for a multitude of reasons, tend to yell the loudest when they have nothing to lose. The SCCA, is clearly, not everyones cup of tea. Neither is NASA. Best of luck to all.

Chris

[red986s]

Nope Greg, you're not.

Being a MiDiv member I understand the frustration. With the "Majors" program in full swing folks are moving to "National" classes to compete. Car counts are way down this year in IT and we are required to tow loooong distances. Something that wasn't an issue in years past. We also have NASA in the MiDiv now so a lot of folks have moved over to try that out. Rats, sinking ship and all that.

[ITEGT]

Hate is a strong word. I don't "Hate" the SCCA. I simply went where it was easiest for me to race for the least amount of money.

If the '12 MiDiv season was unchanged and the IT crowd was still welcome at all the race weekends then I'd have nothing to complain about and my car would still have SCCA decals on it.

Most of the info on the "Majors" and "Rationals" that I based my decision off of I read about here on this website.

So when I post up with the end result of what I've read on here then I'm blindly bashing the SCCA and I'm a hater on a SCCA website? No, I'm sorry that's mistaken. What was I supposed to do just sit around and bitch on here while I continue to send my entry fees to SCCA? Haha No, thanks.

[Ralf]

Greg,
At least they are voicing their opinion about what has been happening in the SCCA, especially here in MiDiv. I'm sure they would like things to change for the better.
In MiDiv, we have what we call the IT Tour that allows us regional guys to run on a national weekend. Most of the weekends used to be R/N weekends, so if we would not have the IT Tour, we would only race on Saturday. This worked great especially when the IT group was one of the largest groups of the weekend. Good for us regional guys and good for the region that has to pay the bills.
For 2012, we got introduced to Rationals, which in theory works great for the national classes too because they can get two days of national racing in on one weekend. The only problem with that is that entry fees have gone up since there are now more sanction numbers. These increased fees don't just apply to the national racers but also the regional guys. The most I paid last year was $340 for the weekend. Memphis reopened this year and started the season with $500 entry fees. That was a shock to everybody and the response was only about 50 entries.
And then there is the Majors program. The first majors event here in MiDiv was at Hallett along with the BFG Super Tour. In 2011, the tour still had room on the schedule for an IT Tour run group. Not this year. So who would drive all the way down there in order to just run on Saturday? Sure you could enter in one of the ST or Prod classes for an additional $200, but how well would you do? Many Miata drivers did enter multiple classes that event and therefore SCCA headquarters has called the event a sucess but what does that do for their racing budget and the rest of the racing season when they spent twice their entry fee on one weekend? They skip a couple, thats what.
Now the Majors event at HPT in July is an invite event only, so that means only the top 10 classes get to race. So that is another weekend that is gone off our schedule. Not good when we only have 8 weekends between 7 tracks.
Why should you care about what is happening in MiDiv? Because the Majors program will be expanded and will affect your race weekends. We've bitched on here for years how we are the step children of the SCCA with our regional only status, so this Majors program should piss you off too. Its all about the national classes and doesn't do anything for us IT guys.
Here are some numbers for you. In 2011, we saw a low of 14 cars in the IT run group and a high of 22. So far with 4 of our race weekends complete, our highest entry event had 11 IT cars. Memphis only saw 5 entries.
Now you may think what happened is that the rest of the IT guys just went national in ST or Prod, but guess again. Overall entries have been much lower than last year.
This could happen in your region as early as 2013.

[Greg Amy]

At least they are voicing their opinion about what has been happening in the SCCA, especially here in MiDiv. I'm sure they would like things to change for the better.

And "they" are wasting their time here on this board, doing nothing but annoying Improved Touring racers. If you truly want to make a change, then focus your efforts where it counts, not in a forum where the only change your effecting is making yourself look like a spoiled little child throwing a temper tantrum in the supermarket.

We've bitched on here for years how we are the step children of the SCCA with our regional only status, so this Majors program should piss you off too...Overall entries have been much lower than last year. This could happen in your region as early as 2013.

And this was a shocker to you? It's right there in the rules, that this is a bastard-child class that will never gain National status. And everyone knows - or should know - that the Club focuses on the National program. Some regions have been able to make IT quite successful, but every one of these regions has the advantage of a large market of potential competitors. You don't.

So since "they" are obviously willing to make a change (by building another car and/or going to another sanctioning body), the simple answer is to find a class that's strong in your area and change to that. Or try to recruit some of those National competitors to switch to IT. The mosquito goes to the light bulb, not the other way around.

Why should you care about what is happening in MiDiv?

Former resident of Wichita Falls Texas, former MidDiv member, 7-year competitor in MidDiv events, 1990 MidDiv SSA Divisional champion against John Saucier (Sr) when he was only "kinda" old (I miss that old rat bastard!)

I was there before Texas Motor Speedway, before MotorSports Ranch, when TWS was shut down, when the closest events in MidDiv were at airports like Ardmore Airpark, Big Spring Texas, and some other one in West Texas. Hallet Motor Speedway, 5 hours away, was my closest track; Topeka was brandy new (I raced the first National there in '89); Ponca City was our shining star National making us feel like real pro racing drivers with the crowds; Memphis and St Louis were full days' drives away, all in my Showroom Stock car with tires stuffed in the back, wondering how I was going to get home if I wrecked it.

You live out in the middle of effing nowhere, with "tracks", such as they are, and competitors spaced out every-which-where.

I recognized at the time I didn't have the opportunities I wanted in racing, nor the competitors, and that the organizers were doing the best they could with the limited tools that had. Recognizing this, I made a significant life change to improve my racing and in 1992 moved to Connecticut. Yes, just because of racing. Twenty years later I see I should have moved to the Southeast to be closer to my two favorite tracks, VIR (which didn't exist back then) and Road Atlanta, as well as other tracks that didn't exist, such as Homestead, Barber, and (I think?) CMP.

"Why should I care about what is happening in MiDiv?" Why should you care what the rest of the country thinks and thus post about it on a national forum (and not even in the regional forum area)? Stop being a spoiled child and make the changes and efforts needed to bring things to your satisfaction.

Or feel free to slam the door on your way out.

GA

[betamotorsports]

In business this is called the "Voice of the Customer." Maybe how and where they express themselves isn't ideal but they have been customers of SCCA and what they have to say is of value - if someone at SCCA is listening.

[Greg Amy]

...they have been customers of SCCA and what they have to say is of value - if someone at SCCA is listening.

SCCA Club Racing is not a "business", it's a club run by members with a very limited paid staff, and I'm pretty confident that Midwest Division SCCA isn't "listening" on the Improved Touring Internet forum.

But if it makes you feel better, good for you <insert pat on back here>.

GA

[downingracing]

Hate is a strong word. I don't "Hate" the SCCA. I simply went where it was easiest for me to race for the least amount of money. ....

If your only concern is cost (actual cash cost) - You're probably right. But there are WAY MORE factors to consider and it SHOCKS me that people focus on the up front cash cost first... There is a reason that many folks make that switch and come running back.

[BruceG]

SCCA Club Racing is not a "business", it's a club run by members with a very limited paid staff, and I'm pretty confident that Midwest Division SCCA isn't "listening" on the Improved Touring Internet forum.

But if it makes you feel better, good for you <insert pat on back here>.

GA

I just purchased an 88 ITS Mazda RX7 here for very reasonable money. Try to do that with showroom stock, any of the production classes,FF,FC,spec racer ford, FE or VSCCA.

Still the least expensive way to get into racing(IT).....and as Greg says, we all know the rules.

[ITEGT]

If your only concern is cost (actual cash cost) - You're probably right. But there are WAY MORE factors to consider and it SHOCKS me that people focus on the up front cash cost first... There is a reason that many folks make that switch and come running back.

"... after the last race of the '11 MiDiv season is cancelled, the first race of the '12 season is a 700 mile tow one way with a $450 entry fee, the IT race group is only invited to Saturday @ Hallet/National racers only on Sunday and the region excludes IT from the July Heartland Park event all together?"

Who's focusing on up front cash costs first? If the region had only raised the entry fees I'd have bitched about it but my car would still have SCCA decals on it. My decision was based on much more than cost alone.

Have I left SCCA for good? No. I still have my SCCA comp liscence and plan to keep my SCCA membership always.

The only thing I would ask of the other region IT racers that have read and posted in this thread is to take note of what happened in the MiDiv to the IT schedule and to the regional entry fees.

[Ralf]

Greg,
I'm still writing checks to SCCA and I'm not ready to throw in the towel just yet, but wish something could be done to improve participation levels. The problem I see though is that in an effort to increase participation levels headquarters is introducing programs that are actually driving members away. They are not listening to their members. You would think that when the RE's tell SCCA that they have serious doubts about the program and how this affect overall participation levels they would listen, but they aren't. One RE even told me he was "Strongly encouraged to support the program". His answer to that is participating less. This is a guy that only misses 1 or 2 events a year and brings two cars.
So instead of calling me a child, offer some suggestions that could help bring back racers. You've obviously tried and failed and packed up and left, just like these guys that are now writing checks to NASA.
I'm not moving again. Been there, done that in my 20 years in the service. I'm staying put.
And yes, I believe some members that are involved in SCCA headquarters are reading these forums, more so than my local division leadership.

[Alain V.]

In the mid 1990s we used to have 40 plus IT cars in the group at least twice a year.
The IT run group at the time had more participation than any other class except spec racers. Cost was not the deciding factor for me,,,,,, I was campaigning not one,,,but two mercedes benz 190e racercars at the time,,,and you couldn't exactly get mail order parts from Summit for those cars.
You guys know the drill,,,,,it took all of my time (and yes, most of my money) to develop the car, fabricate parts, etc,etc,,,,only to be treated like you didn't matter because you don't have a "national" class. Now, all I ever used to hear about at board meetings was concern about "graying" of the SCCA. My logic was to pay a little more attention to the IT guys and maybe even have a few "spectator events" since the average joe can relate to IT cars,,,because he reckognizes the makes/models as.
This could generate interest in the club, and possibly help gain membership and participants

,,,,of course instead of trying anything that would be supportive of such a strong group of cars,,,,it seems like they are still stuck with dinosaur stuff like formula vee. Let's be honest here guys,,,the only twelve people in the nation who give a flying f**k about formula vee are the 12 old farts that still have one. It is dinosaur cars and they don not do anything to attract a younger audience.
Put that old crap into vintage racing where it and all the other dinosaurs belong and maybe then you will have some room for cars build within the last 20 years.

Even a local multiple national champ realized the shortcomings of old technology and moved his MGA into vintage racing ,while he now campaigns a modern mazda on the national club level.

Then there's the whole economics of it. track rentals and associated costs are expensive. So wouldn't it seem logical to try and have participation as high as possible? More participants=more entry fees=more money to cover costs,,,,,,,,so why does the scca seem to do everything it can to lower the motivation to enter on the regional level????

I guess to wrap up my little rant,,,,,, if you go to a local restaurant and they constantly treat you bad and serve mediocre food to you.
If things don't improve, you can vote with your wallet and go to their competitor down the street.

This is pretty much for what I and many others have done and are doing. I know this may seem like a "foreign" concept to many who only run scca events,,,,,,but there are actually groups and clubs out there who are happy to have you participate with them and who will treat you like they appreciate your choice to run with them.

[downingracing]

...Then there's the whole economics of it. track rentals and associated costs are expensive. So wouldn't it seem logical to try and have participation as high as possible? More participants=more entry fees=more money to cover costs,,,,,,,,so why does the scca seem to do everything it can to lower the motivation to enter on the regional level????

I guess to wrap up my little rant,,,,,, if you go to a local restaurant and they constantly treat you bad and serve mediocre food to you.
If things don't improve, you can vote with your wallet and go to their competitor down the street.

This is pretty much for what I and many others have done and are doing. I know this may seem like a "foreign" concept to many who only run scca events,,,,,,but there are actually groups and clubs out there who are happy to have you participate with them and who will treat you like they appreciate your choice to run with them.

I hear what you are saying - But I think you are missing one point. The SCCA is a club that 'should' be member-driven. My region is working hard to promote IT racing. I volunteer and participate in race planning as well as compete in the events. It takes members to participate and make the club what you want it to be. I'm a member of the club and want to do what I can to help my region be a success. I hear this over and over and over - "I don't know why the SCCA doesn't ...". I've said this over and over - It is EASY - Make it happen! Around here, IT racing is doing GREAT! IT-Fest, IT-SM Shootout @ Grand-Am, ARRC... There are plenty of 'cool' events to do along with all the other regional races going on. This past weekend was a 2x regional at Grattan and one at Watkins Glen. I was at the Glen and there were plenty of IT/SM cars and an overall great turnout for a regional race weekend. The IT-SM shootout event is sold out and has a waiting list...

Many of the other groups are for-profit and of course will be happy to take your money so they can make a profit! These groups will take your money and do what they can to make you happy (as long as they make a profit). The product they offer is fine for some - but not all events are equal... Some of these groups have poor safety records or practices. Some of those groups have sups with things like "you are responsible any damages you cause to the track" and "any damage between cars is between the owners of the vehicles". I know what those things mean and what they can mean if/when something goes wrong.

I appreciate there are choices and that some people are comfortable with making a choice different than mine. Everyone needs to asses the risk/reward/value and choose the path that they want. I know my risk/reward/value threshold and there is only one club that meets my criteria. All my .02 cents.

[Flyinglizard]

AS most of you know. I race and support lots of cars that run lots of groups. We have ran NASA, because of the Teen Mazda Challenge, and that they had the best SM rule set. More parity. SCCA has finally matched the NASA rules set. way slow, IMHO..

WE run Chumpcar because I need the business and it is fun, hassle free racing. About half of my Chumpcar drivers have a SCCA license. Chumpcar is huge and growing. It will surpass SCCA in racer numbers this year. 691 drivers @ Daytona this 5/27. All like the 14hr race in one day. tow in, race, tow home. We dont need a 4 day weekend to race 2hrs.
Many have let their SCCA stuff lapse due to the medical.,
I have. Maybe that could be looked at. Maybe the insurance/medical relationship can be looked at.

I use the SCCA PDX to test the Chumpcars. I get hassled by the tech guys and bitched at by the "old Guard"( stewards and racers). I really dont giveasheet, as I just want them to do their job. If I wanted an opinion, I would ask. Just tech the frakin car thanks. Is it safe? yes or no?.


SCCA has treated our family and most of my customers as tho they dont care about return business.
We run SCCA as a last resort to track time. I really hope that SCCA can turn itself to a better customer driven business.
It is dying as a club.

Racingwise;

Maybe it is time to get rid of the National/ regional split. Times change, SCCA should be able to change in less than 10yrs, to a required market change. The market has changed in major areas. We need a rapid business plan change to match the market and remain competitive.

This week I will make the connections @ CFR SCCA for crap can class or put them in ITO. I have a few guys that would try SCCA if they can run their cars, and we treat them as they have been treated by Chumpcar.

The main guy that owns Chumpcar, will go from team to team, and actually talk to each team and most of the racers , each race. He will give words of appreciation and field a few questions. Most SCCA races show about 10 stewards of the meet, or whatever . How many chiefs do we need? WTF do they actually do? How come I am not asked, "Are you having a good time? " "How can we improve your experience with SCCA? ."
IMHO make it better, more will stay.
MM

[RX555]

For those of you not in Midiv, the OP and others are spot on with the low turn outs in this division. Your division may be different. Midiv tracks are so far apart that entries are down the last couple years, but that's been discussed at length elsewhere. I think the division has realized it left us IT guys out and have gone back and added IT to most all the race weekends. I don't think entry fees have gone up other than at Memphis.
I've said it before in other threads, but if the other division tracks are too far away, just run what's close and have fun. Chasing points in the division just isn't worth anything to me.

I think the above post has it right with his comparison to Chumpcar (and Lemons too). Those series' are growing by leaps and bounds and more cars being built all the time, so blaming the economy for an SCCA down turn doesn't fly with me. SCCA has just lost it's way with enticing the new racers to the club. I'm still sticking it out so far and haven't tried the crap can racing yet, but would like too. My biggest thing against them is the cars are so crappy looking (which shouldn't matter but does to me).

[lateapex911]

I've said it before in other threads, but if the other division tracks are too far away, just run what's close and have fun. Chasing points in the division just isn't worth anything to me.

I think the above post has it right with his comparison to Chumpcar (and Lemons too). Those series' are growing by leaps and bounds and more cars being built all the time, so blaming the economy for an SCCA down turn doesn't fly with me.

Bzzzt: 404 error, logic not found

SCCA has just lost it's way with enticing the new racers to the club. I'm still sticking it out so far and haven't tried the crap can racing yet, but would like too. My biggest thing against them is the cars are so crappy looking (which shouldn't matter but does to me).

Chumpcar is DIFFERRENT. And you can't compare the two and eliminate the economy, because LeMons/Chumpcar isn't the same thing, AND it's cheaper. (esp when a gang of four shares the expenses)

You said it yourself, you are tired of chasing points, going for the championship, going for the wins.
See, THAT is expensive. I've done it, and the wins and the track records and divisional and ARRC championships and trophies cast money. A LOT MORE money than just running around with a lesser program.

And to competitors...real competitors to whom winning and track records mean success, the Crapcan stuff makes little sense. Why bother? Shitty cars, arbitrary rules, arbitrary rulings, and capricious officials.

I'm not saying it's worse, or better, but it's NOT the same. SCCA racing, in nearly every class, is about winning and running a top program.

I think it's more complex than just money.
1- Families are more demographic than they once were. The average SCCA guy gets his marching orders from his wife. Kids to soccer this weekend, Daughter is singing in a play the following weekend, and the son is in a swim meet the following, and Dad better be present. That isn't how it used to be. Shop time is reduced, personal free time is reduced, and available weekends are reduced. Therefor entries are down.
2- Costs ARE up. To get my car back on the track this year, and to be as safe I was last year, I will need to spend over $2K on safety gear, and arguably I'll be less safe. Then there's gas, ($200 to get to my second closest track, and about $250 to get to the next track. My "home" track has only 2 races this year) hotels, maintenance, tires, etc etc.
3- I think the general car guy population is seeing fewer 'real competitors" and more 'fun racers'. Guys who like racing, and are happy with little victories. Less track record seekers. And more track day guys who tell their friends they 'race', when they do track days. Blame it on video games or pampered egos, but I think the number of guys who are most interested in just winning are a shrinking proportion of the whole car guy population.

So, you have SCCA which is great are running real races and structuring the system around winning and such, but...there are fewer takers interested.

My $.02

[JeffYoung]

While I might have chosen different words than Greg, I think his view on this is correct. It's a regional issue, not an SCCA wide one. IT in the SEDiv (and NEDIv0 is very strong -- we had a 52 car IT field at VIR in May and over 40 cars (for a single!) in March. 17 ITS car in May and 13 in March.

If your region is scheduling races to "stick it to" the IT crowd, the remedy is with the region. Get involved with race scheduling and see if you can make a difference.....