SE regional class; ITJ

[Flyinglizard]

That is not correct. Lemons maybe. Not Chump. No themes, no bribes, just the AIV BS paperwork, for Chump.
Not perfect but real racing with cheap-ish cars.

Even Lemons has gotten a little more racey. Two off gets you a stop and go.

[Simon T.]

I would like to see a "Twilight Endurance Series". Race from maybe 5:00 till 9 or 10 pm.
Allow IT cars,prod cars, ITJ/CCR cars, all on 190 or 180 or higher tread wear tires. Max width of 205 mm
Any wheel. No fuel rigs!

I'd totally be down for that. Make it happen.

[Matt93SE]

...$5k is about right for a fast car, BUT - you get to build what YOU want, not some rule set that sweats you over bolt length or decal placement. THIS is the draw for me and why I left IT.

You understand that you just admitted that "$500 race cars" already cost 10x as much as that to build, and you've left the door wide open for that cost to increase essentially unchecked, right?

Maybe you could consider a claimer rule? They do it at LeMons, Chump, and almost every roundy-round track in the country.

That is not correct. Lemons maybe. Not Chump. No themes, no bribes, just the AIV BS paperwork, for Chump.
Not perfect but real racing with cheap-ish cars.

Even Lemons has gotten a little more racey. Two off gets you a stop and go.

That's one of the big reasons I don't like racing LeMons. I had to put 4 in the grass to avoid a wreck once and spent 30 minutes in the pits explaining my position to some fat sweaty guy wearing a robe, powdered wig, and riding a Segway.. Of course I had to wait for them to finish tar & feathering another "bad driver" for a similar avoidance maneuver.

[Flyinglizard]

The claimer rule is interesting. Chumpcar does not do it anymore. I DKA lemons.
It would compromise safety IMHO. I freshen the front end every 20hrs. Nothing suspect is run. The claimer may reduce the safety value of tie rods, ball joint, etc. IMHo. Plus , many of the cars are IT cars that sold for 3000$ MOL. So the claimer would have to be about that. Front running cars are sold for 3-4K.
If Road Atlanta would help this along I will pump it up here.

[Matt93SE]

gotcha. I thought Chumnpcar had a claimer rule- I guess had is the key term.. I believe the price was $3500 for a car as well. Maybe that was LeMons. They also did a joke of a claimer rule where Jay reserved the right to claim a car for $500, then was allowed to auction it off to the highest bidder. I think I read he did that once or twice a few years ago and then people got better about the blatant cheating since they were afraid to have the car bought out from under them. (Thus the point!)

As for a price, my thought is that it would be in the $3500 range as well. That's about what we have in our LeMons Miata, and we put slightly more than that in Troy Hogan's 240Z build, but that car was soooo cheater-ific it was unreal..

[Ron Earp]

I had to put 4 in the grass to avoid a wreck once and spent 30 minutes in the pits explaining my position to some fat sweaty guy wearing a robe, powdered wig, and riding a Segway.. Of course I had to wait for them to finish tar & feathering another "bad driver" for a similar avoidance maneuver.

Don't get me wrong, I do like the idea of Chump and Lemons, parts of it that is, but these sorts of things really detract from it and reduce it to something that isn't racing.

[jumbojimbo]

When I was in the tire store on Saturday one of the techs stopped me and said he raced with a Chump team in a 4G civic. Which is ironic since it is probably I nicer car than I race. It was interesting to hear the perspective of a plain old driver and not someone who is completely in love with CC.

It's obvious that he think IT racing is 1/4 to 1/2 step up in terms of being "real" racing but he's happy with the perceived value he gets out of racing CC.

Cost-wise he figured they had about $5k in the car, pretty comparable to an ITB car, although they've probably added that little by little and not in one big lump like you'd normally do building an IT car. He figures he spends about $1k for a race, so that's about $500 per hour of track time. I spend about $1k per race weekend, but I only get 1.5 hours and half of that is qualifying. I'd still say the cost is not that different.

For competiton, he understands that there is a wide variety of speeds on track and he's really it's not getting the same kind of close racing we get, but to him it is "still racing". One of the big pluses for him is the sheer number of cars on track, which I think keeps it from being a boring lapping day and more like a real race. He said CC can't do MO because they'd be limited to 60 cars on track, which to him meant "booorrrrring". He did understand that I don't have that concern because I race close with my competitors the whole race, so it doesn't matter to me whether there are 20 other cars or 60 on track, I'd never see them anyway.

He said something about not being sure he'd want to try "sprint" racing. The idea that what we're doing is more like an autocross, a super-compressed version of what he does. Which is odd to me because I have to admit that I am not looking forward to the 19 lap race at MO in two weeks. That's a long race for me and after about 10 laps I'll be looking for the checkered flag. But it was interesting to hear that he would sort of like to try it, but he thinks it would be a big change and a big challenge. Honeestly, I doubt it is that different and he'd fit right in.

Operationally, he said the biggest hassle is getting everyone together for one event. coordinating schedules and budgets. On the other hand there is the advantage that they can pool their resources, they only need 1 truck, 1 trailer, 1 race car, etc. It did not sound like they have ever had anyone crash the car or have the car break in the first hour so he'd never had to deal with putting a bunch of money out and only getting to watch.

It also seemed like $1-2k was kind of his limit for the year. Maybe he could do 2 races a year if everyone else could, but I don't see him running a 6 or 8 weekend IT schedule. So for him the advantage is that it's one long event per year, not 2 or 3 or 6 little events. Would I want to run IT if I could only run 2 events a year? Not really. But I also don't want to run CC once a year either.

He also liked the idea that he got to race with his buddies. I think his perception of IT racing is that we race against strangers. He didn't really understand that I race with the same people every race, we hang out together, we're friends. The big advantage he has is that his friends are local and they are his everyday friends. My guys are spread out over the state so I can't just hang out with them in a bar on a Tuesday. The big advantage I have is that I get to race AGAINST my friends, not with them. So the competition is even more fun because we carry the same experiences and stories from race to race. He picked up on that pretty quickly and the idea of racing against his guys instead of with them seem to sound pretty good to him. Good enough to get everyone to spend $3k to buy a car? Not really.

I think on balance he'd fit into IT racing, but only if he had another $5k a year to do 6-8 events. As long as he doesn't have the money and he's happy doing 1 event a year, that is where he will stay. But I have to beleive that there is a percentage of CC guys out there who would enjoy IT racing a little more than CC. We just need to find a way to coax them over to the dark side.

[Knestis]

Some interesting additions to the conversation there, Jim - thanks.

K

[Matt93SE]

When I was in the tire store on Saturday one of the techs stopped me and said he raced with a Chump team in a 4G civic.

It's funny some of the comparisons you get from the "unwashed masses".

I like to think of myself as pretty open-minded and pragmatic, and I like to hear opinions like your tire guys..
I must disagree to some of it, however.. they are of course his opinions though..

I've run SCCA for about 2 years now, probably 40 races (20 race weekends).
For the most part, I run with the same group of people. I run mid-pack, and all of the guys in front of me sunk a TON of money into their cars. I'm running STU on a Chump-ish budget (seriously), and all of the cars that are faster than me cost at least 3x as much.
That said, we're all friends. I race with- and against- my friends. If McClughan has a car problem, I'm trying to help him. when I was having handling issues at TMS earlier this month, Austin Snader loaned me his $$$ alignment gear and took the time to come help on my car while he was having serious electrical problems with his own car. At the end of the race, we drank each other's beer and I helped him take down his canopy.
then we all said our goodbyes until next time we see each other -- at the next race, at work, car club meeting, pool party at his house, you name it.

Back up a few months to the last LeMons race.. 2hrs into the race we lost our water pump belt. the guys right next to us just happened to be driving same car. "Hey, you guys have a belt we can steal?"
sure enough, a belt came flying out of the trailer.
unfortunately, we overheated the engine and blew the head gasket... damn.. well, it's 8hrs of racing today, let's go shopping. found an engine one of the shops at the track took in as a core.. borrowed engine hoist from random group of dudes and had the engine out in an hour or so..
got the engine back in and was ready to start with 1hr left on the clock for the day, unfrotunately one of our guys hooked the battery up backwards. DOH!! it fried the alternator and several fusible links in the fuse box. another sprint around the pits and we sourced the parts necesary from fellow competitors.
we wound up getting the car running about 10 min after the day's checkered flag.

So we went to the parts store and bought replacements for all the crap we borrowed, then we went back to the track and drank beer... with our LeMons friends..
next day we had the car running and it ran just fine. while we were loading up, we were trading war stories about the crappy SHO drivers and that damn E30 BMW.. and sho'nuff, we were drinking each others' beers too. After awards ceremony, we helped our friends load up their trailers, and even put down our beer push one broken car onto a trailer... then we all said our goodbyes until next time we see each other -- at the next race, at work, car club meeting, pool party, you get the point.

It doesn't matter what group I'm racing with, I'm racing with my friends. (and there's beer involved.)

The difference I see is that many crapcan teams only make one or two races a year. other teams make 10 or 15 a year. the ones who make multiple races become friends with many of those 80 or 100 cars on the track. there's friends, rivals, enemies, you name it. Just like in Club Racing..

the only difference is I'm racing a car in an enduro with mutliple drivers vs. a sprint race against those same drivers..

[TStiles]

Matt , How come you guys didn't bring the miata to TWS last weekend ?

Lots of SCCA guys running , and good time had by most

[Matt93SE]

"we" were there. I stayed home to work on my STU car and financially recover from club races.. Hallett Apr 14-15, TMS May 5-6, TWS May 26-27.

The rest of the guys were there, but I hear they didn't run that much. basically went and goofed off. they only made like 150 laps or something..
(Glad I didn't go.. I would have been hopping mad had I paid to enter a 24 hr race and only run 1/3 of it!!!)

[forestdweller37]

We had an ITJ car running with us up at BIR this last weekend. I spoke to the owner/driver on Sunday. He'd purchased the (former chump) car on his own, I believe, for SCCA racing. He told me that he'd considered taking the car to ITB, but was likely to give it a nice paint job and stay in ITJ. There were some things done to the car for chump that would be difficult to reverse for ITB. He was there with his wife and kids, which was nice to see.

Maybe SCCA's place in the world of CCR is a more relaxed, family-friendly, race weekend without the challenges of coordinating a team or worrying about cost/valuation rules.

[Flyinglizard]

One of the best parts of Chumpcar''.. A spare kid armed with a sawsall vs Chumpcar. "Hey Mike cut out alof the interior bracket crap and lets go racing" Family fun around power tools. All good.
The kids love adding lightness. Keep a scale around and watch how they react to what they have removed. Also the beauty of Chumpcar is the lack of beauty. The kids can help work on the car without worry about paint, dents etc. The larger part of the family involved in the race car, the stronger the family.

Tough to put it all back, along with the horn, vapor bottle the washer bottle, IT crap. The cars actually cross over real easy to Production. We run the GOlf both in HP and Chump.

[Spinnetti]

...$5k is about right for a fast car, BUT - you get to build what YOU want, not some rule set that sweats you over bolt length or decal placement. THIS is the draw for me and why I left IT.

You understand that you just admitted that "$500 race cars" already cost 10x as much as that to build, and you've left the door wide open for that cost to increase essentially unchecked, right?

With 125 cars vying for a win at ANY race, the competitive pressure - and interest of increasingly well-funded drivers - spending will inflate like a carcass in the sun. Even with cheap-o tires, it's going to go nuts.

K

Well, I can tell you I have 1/4 the cost in my lemon as my IT car which is slower. i paid $350 for a 1991 Lexus LS400 with 250k miles on it, that was old and faded, but dent and rust free. It had collapsed air suspension and a frozen fan pulley. For $100 I got worn out struts from the junk yard, $30 got me ebay coliover kits for both ends (random spring rate) and I cut off the frozen pulley. Just had to spend $19 for a shorter belt. I literally built the mechanicals including the cost of the car (less safety gear) for under $500. All the rest is safety gear and tires (I did just break down and get some wider wheels). I haven't touched the motor or trans, other than fluid change and some sparkplugs. It really is $500 less safety gear if you want it to be, and I run up front. Can't touch that in IT - sorry. Its been going on long enough that the wallet boys are already out in force, and I wish they would go back to porsche club/scca. There are plenty of cheaters, but I just do my thing and don't worry about it. with 100 car fields, there is racing for everybody, and I generally outpace the spendy boys. Besides, in an endurance event like this, pit work matters more than lap times so it tends to even things out quite a bit.

[Knestis]

...all of which is cool. We just have to be very careful that we compare apples to apples.

This is something of a throwback to when IT was brand new. A good friend of mine built a Rabbit as a project car (for the then-new GRM, I think?) back in 1985 or so. He used to take it to car shows, telling them they could build one just like it and get on the track for $2500 or whatever it was. When it came time to sell it, all of a sudden he wanted 2x that amount.

Things are never as cheap as they can be made to sound, and we don't do anyone any favors - and complicate discussions - when we aren't realistic about costs.

K

[Spinnetti]

...all of which is cool. We just have to be very careful that we compare apples to apples.

This is something of a throwback to when IT was brand new. A good friend of mine built a Rabbit as a project car (for the then-new GRM, I think?) back in 1985 or so. He used to take it to car shows, telling them they could build one just like it and get on the track for $2500 or whatever it was. When it came time to sell it, all of a sudden he wanted 2x that amount.

Things are never as cheap as they can be made to sound, and we don't do anyone any favors - and complicate discussions - when we aren't realistic about costs.

K

Yeah, I think your "dawn of IT" is right on... Lemons will go the way of SCCA too, and something else will replace it. Racing is expensive. Period. The inital lemon car cost is much cheaper, and per event/per hour costs are a bit lower too. I buy 2 tires, (good) brake pads all around and (synthetic) fluids each event, plus entry fees, towing, hotel etc, total cost is about $3200 per event/ 4 drivers = $800 each to run up front for ~4-5 hrs of track time per driver per weekend. The show up and just have fun crowd spend significantly less - maybe half that (my car has high running costs), but on a per hour basis, its a bit cheaper to run faster. Again, the big draw for me isn't cost, its admin hassle (club membership/schools/physicals/hans/over-frequent expiration of belts/net) and building what the hell I want, how I want. when you add up the total cost including "admin time", Lemons offers complelling advantages in cost, entry to the game and flexibility on what you bring - show up with a safe car and drive. The lesson to take away here for you guys, is how to reduce the barriers to entry that have slowly accrued over time in the SCCA. One of the easiest ways is the "ITJ" category so these cars can run. Probably should also rethink the medical/licensing thing though - maybe just honor the licenses from other series - including lemons/chump... there's no evidence that SCCA has any lower risk than lemons, so why place that extra burden to run them? SCCA is suppposedly member driven, so lets open the tent a bit and get some of the market back. A club with 3 entries per class is pretty inbred if you ask me; its not lack of demand, its barriers to the club that aren't worth jumping over for many people - if SCCA met those needs, many of us wouldn't be in Lemons or Chump or just out of the game...

[Flyinglizard]

"Twilight Endurance Series" TES, Ogren 5/2012
Basic rule set. as of 6/1/12

All cars will have either SCCA or Chumpcar logbook.
May have both.

1) Safety rules per SCCA;All rules per SCCA RE, arm restraints or roof panel, clothing, helmets,etc.
SCCA Cage rules, plus the "Crap Cans" are allowed to attach the cage along the sill/rocker area with tabs or continual tubes. All tubing must be within the wheel base, when the cage connects to the front strut houses.
The rear tubes may go past the gas tank.

2) All glass may be removed or left in. It may be replaced with lexan, 6mm front, 3mm any other . Or left out. Roofs may be cut off.CC must comply with the current 60% of bodywork requirement.

FWD can use any springs/adjusters.
RWD can cut stock springs
All must use OE price shocks.

3) Battery disconnect must be reachable by the driver, belted in.

4) Little Crap Can, ( LCC) Engine size of 2.3liter or less, stock parts, intake, stock exhaust manifold.

All ITC, ITB,GP, HP, SSC , 1.6 Miata, all cars on 180TW tires.

5) "Big Crap Can " ( BCC) engine size over 2.3liter or modded outside of LCC rule. All stock boosted and Rotary, any cc VVT are BCC.
ITA, SSB, 1.8 Miata, SRF, on 180 TW tires

6)UCC, "Unlimited Crap Can"; All swaps that increase the total valve count by more than 3, or piston count.This includes twin engines..
ITS, FP, T1, T2,T3,

6) SCCA belt rules are 2 yrs. Chumpcar is 4 yr (in good shape) . ***CC must update belts to SCCA, 2yr rule***


7)All other cars must comply with their current rules, including weight. log book required.
All tires must= 180 Treadwear or higher. ( Chumpcar is 190 but the 180 TW # allows Kumho and not just the Dunlop Start Spec.)

8)Fueling requirement subject to local supps.
5 min stop, determined by transponder. That is, = to the best lap plus 5 min , plus transit time. Teams must self monitor. All teams under this time may come back in for a stop and go equal to the short time, (To avoid post race DQ.)
If no live timing is available , teams may be required to time each other with stop watches.

9) FUELING IS defined as having the fuel cap off.
No fuel rigs, 5 gal style jugs, hand held only.
Drivers may change while fueling, window nets stay down as long as the gas cap is off.
Fire extinguisher, must have pin out and manned within 8ft of fuel door.
All team members over the wall while fueling, must be in full fire suits, including face coverage.
No work can be done while fueling .

2 hr stint max.

These are my basics @ this time. , Typical Crapcan mods are gutting , brake upgrades,ducts. . Some parts are fabricated,swaybars, etc.

Notes picked up in the last few weeks.
My local (CFR)race board guy doesnt want the Chumps dropped into a group. This forces the " Normal" high dollar cars to run next to the crap cars. valid.
If we can find 60 min or more to run this race, than the "Normal" cars can opt in to run with the crap.

There may be the option of crediting the new Chump drivers with track time ,by observation.
MM

[Flyinglizard]

http://www.texasworldspeedway.com/
Junkyard sprints.
MM

[Flyinglizard]

Why SCCA is losing customers;
Sebring ,SCCA, (CFR region) update. ; We left the side windows out of this car. It was nice and cool @ Daytona and went about the same speed, 114.( for 14hrs)
The Prod rules say that the side glass may be leftout or lexan. The rule section is not very clear , so Icalled John Bauer and asked." yes, you may leave out the side windows."
OK
The car owner is 75yrs old, the co driver is 79. I sent the car to the track, I stayed home.
The grid marshal threatened to remove the tech sticker.!! ( As the car was going out on track.) The driver said" I will go to tech post qualifying ".

Tech made these old guys, go to town and buy lexan and install it, before the car could go out again. Total BS. If the windows were out of compliance, they should have made a note in the logbook, not required on the spot action.IMHO.
This is why many race elsewhere, after this kind of treatment. These guys will race Chumpcar from now on. ( same car)
Yes the car is not overly pretty. It is a stock 18yr old ITB car , on Goodyear SRF tires, running in HP with no side windows. These old guys just want to race a little.

Action like this has been continual in CFR. I wonder why I still promote SCCA . granted,we are not in the "in crowd". The meetings are too far from me to attend. Maybe we need to pay the tech people, so that they just do their job.
PBOC, NASA, POC all will not abuse the Chumpcar driving customer . The same cars run with allof these groups, Chin. etc.
People will go down the path of least resistance, the second time. MM

[Spinnetti]

Why SCCA is losing customers;
Sebring ,SCCA, (CFR region) update. ; We left the side windows out of this car. It was nice and cool @ Daytona and went about the same speed, 114.
The Prod rules say that the side glass may be leftout or lexan. The rule section is not very clear , so Icalled John Bauer and asked." yes, you may leave out the side windows."
OK
The car owner is 75yrs old, the co driver is 79. I sent the car to the track, I stayed home.
The grid marshel threatened to remove the tech sticker.!! ( As the car was going out on track.) The driver said" I will go to tech post qualifying ".

Tech made these old guys, go to town and buy lexan and install it, before the car could go out again. Total BS. If the windows were out of compliance, they should have made a note in the logbook, not required on the spot action.IMHO.
This is why many race elsewhere, after this kind of treatment. These guys will race Chumpcar from now on. ( same car)
Yes the car is not overly pretty. It is a stock 18yr old ITB car , on Goodyear SRF tires, running in HP with no side windows. These old guys just race a little.
MM

Classic.

They should let you run in all cases except saftey issues, then DQ your results if in violation. That way, you can run what you brung, regardless of if you get points or a trophy or whatever. I have a different problem that keeps me away anyway. I bought all brand new gear including belts and window nets, then didn't race it for several years. Now those are "junk" according to the SCCA.. I guess sitting in the box they rot away? No thanks, still in Lemons.....