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Thread: ITS Mustang Results - some useful/useless information ...

  1. #1

    Arrow ITS Mustang Results - some useful/useless information ...

    I have been watching w/interest as Ron has progressed on his ITS Mustang(s). Except for a few questions, I had nothing really to offer as Ron's preparation level is way beyond what I have historically used in my own IT cars. However, after having run my own ITS Mustang this last weekend at TMS, I would like to throw the following out there ... 1) The car weight was (much to my disappointment) a hefty 2,870 lbs (I was really hoping to be in the 2,700 lb range, but alas ...). Tho nearly 50/50 side to side, almost 58% was on the front end. 2) With driver, the OA weight bumped up to 3,069 lbs. The side split became roughly 52/48, but the front end dropped to under 57%. 3) For reasons I will not bore you with, I ran 205/50x15 tires ... talk about an elephant on roller skates!!! I estimate about a 2 second per lap loss vs. any of the 2-groove tires. 4) Do not get too impressed w/any dyno torque figures as they are quickly chewed up & spit out by the OA weight of the vehicle. 5) Tho I have yet to install brake ducting, the brakes were not an issue at this track. 6) Carbotech brake pads are, w/out a doubt, the 'dirtiest' brake pads I have ever used. 6) Tho no oil pressure issues in the shakedown at Eagles Canyon, for some reason, the OP dropped to 30 psi @ 4,000 RPM & above. As it did not happen before, I doubt it is cavitation. 7) A transmission leak on high G LH turns, but not from the breather. 8) I also noticed a slight 'blatty sound' from the exhaust. As the 'normal' exhaust is a very nice un-V6 like sound running thru Borla XR-1 mufflers, I tend to think that there is a small leak somewhere. 9) Gotta drop the seat about an inch. 10) Somebody please tell me that I WILL get used to the HANS (actually R3) device. Talk about 'visual handcuffs'!!! I am not saying that we shouldn't have 'em, just tell me that there is a light at the end of the tunnel in terms of getting used to it. OK, we now return to our regularly scheduled program ...

  2. #2
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    Re visual handcuffs...Scrap stock outside mirrors. Use 4" truck mirror on the left "A" pillar. Center mirror...mount as low and close to you as possible. That way head movements to see the mirrors are minimal. Adjust center mirror so you can see the RR wheel area and scrap the right side oem mirror. Chuck
    Chuck Baader
    White EP BMW M-Techniq
    I may grow older, but I refuse to grow up!

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    Interesting observations and no doubt I'll have some to add when we test our car tomorrow. I'll throw in some comments here on a couple of your points that might help, or might not.

    1) We're a good bit lighter than that. I suspect you can find considerable weight to be removed with application of the various weight threads on the site, although I'm sure you're probably already aware of the areas where you can reap the most benefit.

    2) We're still good on L/R at 50/50 with driver, cross weights excellent, but the front rear at around 54/46 seems to be about as good as we've managed. We'd be able to get it down to maybe 50/50, but it'd be due to adding fuel and our overall weight would rise considerably.

    3) Sounds scary on the tires. We're planning on 245-45-15 Hoosiers.

    4) Drop weight. Or make more power. We're planning to do both.

    6) No doubt, but I sure like how they work.

    6a) I hope oiling issues are not common for these engines. Our sources say oiling isn't a problem at all and our engine is very set on making 80 psi of oil pressure from 1500RPM - 5500 RPM. I think it is too high, but it is what it is for the time being. I'd like to see around 55 psi at 5500 RPM as I think the 80psi is robbing some small amount of hp.

    7) Good tip. We'll look for this problem.

    8) Muffler(s) as in plural? I'd suggest that there is unneeded weight right there and I believe that with some modeling and dyno time you'd find a properly designed single exhaust will be superior to the dual setup. I bet it sounds nice though, ours, not so much.
    Last edited by Ron Earp; 05-10-2012 at 08:20 PM.

  4. #4

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    Chuck Baader: "Center mirror...mount as low & close to you as possible."

    We will have to agree to disagree on this one. One of the things you want to do in a race car is minimize your focal point changes. Moving the mirror closer does that ... big time!!! Mirrors are different from gauges in that there is greater information to process. As for the side mirrors, your idea has merit. Except that the only difference in the Mustang is whether you want your eyes to go over to the left ... & down; or over to the left ... & up. It's not an issue in my street GT as the seat reclines. Methinks that the answer lies in playing w/seat mount/tracks & OA angle.

  5. #5

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    1) We're a good bit lighter than that. I suspect you can find considerable weight to be removed w/application of the various weight threads on the site.
    I did not 'splice & dice' the engine harness or peel off the floor insulation. On the other hand, your cage has more tubing. As you discovered, there are many subtle differences between the 1996/97 Mustang & the 1998 Mustang. Maybe weight is one of them. Any further debate on this subject is best left to the time when we can weigh them on the same scales.

    3) Sounds scary on the tires. We're planning on 245-45-15 Hoosiers.
    I was ready for the difference so it wasn't that scary. However, if you ever want suspension feedback w/out generating a lot of speed, merely install a smaller set of tires. The OA handling characteristics remain the same, but the feedback happens a lot sooner.

    6a) I hope oiling issues are not common for these engines. Our sources say oiling isn't a problem at all & our engine is very set on making 80 psi of oil pressure from 1,500-5,500 RPM. I think it is too high, but it is what it is for the time being. I'd like to see around 55 psi @ 5500 RPM as I think the 80 psi is robbing some small amount of hp.
    I do not think that it is common & I tend to agree w/your sources. However, keep in mind that this engine was never designed for competition usage. The T-Bird Super Coupe was as close as it ever got to high performance. Like I said, it cropped up between the test day & the race weekend. I have 80 psi on initial start-up, but it settles down to 60 psi when warm. But whether I just rev it up in the paddock or go thru the gears on the track, as soon as I get to 4,000 RPM, it drops to 30 psi ... no lower. To be honest, I am hoping it's P/U tube.

    7) Good tip. We'll look for this problem.
    I remember that the 2nd gen 300ZX/Z32 had an engine oiling issue that only came up in high G RH turns which, unfortunately, was what turn #1 was at Road Atlanta ... & where the Runoffs were at the time. Personally, I think that this issue will be a lot less complicated.

    8) Muffler(s) as in plural? I'd suggest that there is unneeded weight right there & I believe that w/some modeling & dyno time you'd find a properly designed single exhaust will be superior to the dual setup. I bet it sounds nice tho, ours, not so much.[/QUOTE]
    Please do not take this personally, but "complicated, expensive & time consuming do not always a better mousetrap make". However, w/that said, for someone such as myself who has zero fabrications skills, the 'plug-&-play' aspect of IT racing has always been attractive to me. Thinking quickly, I believe that the only fabricated parts on the Mustang are the roll cage (Autopower) & the short pipes connecting the X-pipe to the mufflers on the exhaust system.

    Anyway, I will provide you w/the 'autopsy results' of the oiling & transmission issues ASAP.

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    Try for less than 54% rear weight. Take # off of the LF , until it hurts the car turning left.

    Keeping your eyes near center, for all of your info input, will keep you from hitting stuff,IMHo

    Swap out the oil pump, add a strut to the pickup tube, add distance to the pan..

    The 205 tires will have no value trimming the car for a 245 tire. the big tires need way more spring.
    Mike Ogren , FWDracingguide.com, 352.4288.983 ,http://www.ogren-engineering.com/

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    This thread better be getting updated after every test session!
    Andy Bettencourt
    New England Region 188967

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    With the center mirror close and down, you don't have to move your head, just cut your eyes. I run a Longacre curved mirror and can see behind me and the RR corner without moving my head much. Re focusing on the mirror has not been a problem. Chuck
    Chuck Baader
    White EP BMW M-Techniq
    I may grow older, but I refuse to grow up!

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    Plus one on the no comparo between 205 and 245. And if the 205's were fine now, wait til you go faster!
    Chris Rallo "the kid"
    -- "wrenching and racing" -- "will race for food!" -- "Onward and Upward"

  10. #10

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    Flyinglizard: "Try for less than 54% rear weight."
    Do you mean 54% FRONT weight?

    "Keeping your eyes near center for all of your info input ..."
    It's not so much a left/center/right issue as a near/far issue. Your eyes refocus just going from the gauges to the mirror. And all the while, there are a potload of IT cars capable of covering the length of a football field in under 2 seconds. And things can really get weird when night racing. And, all the while, we count the ounces in getting the weight off, but ignore what Carroll Smith often referred to as "the weakest link in any race car ... the driver!"No mas!!!

    "Swap out the oil pump, add a strut to the pickup tube ..."
    New pump has already been ordered. Existing P/U tube has additional bracket in OE trim, but may add gusset(s) pending 'autopsy'.

    "... add distance to the pan."
    Do you mean lengthen the P/U tube?

  11. #11

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    Chuck Baader: "I run a Longacre curved mirror & can see behind me & the RR corner w/out moving my head much."
    I have looked at those. Thanks for the confirmation. I think that it will be a viable option when I get the seat dropped down a bit.

  12. #12
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    Smile

    Try a tractor-trailer side mirror in the car horizontally. They are around 20 inches long by 6 inches wide and have a 5/16 stud in the middle of each end.
    They give a big enough field of vision that you can rotate them and
    see directly behind you as well as out the right window. It's big enough that you see everything using both eyes and have great depth perception. You get the big clear picture about the car trying to get underneath you going into the right-handers. Your eyes don't have to refocus when you're looking forward and then backwards depth is always the same.
    And if you mount your video camera to the right of your helmet then the split image that occurs (with the top of the screen being what's behind you and the bottom two thirds what's in front) evidence how much the car is rotating by the amount they move laterally to each other- quite interesting!
    phil hunt

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    Quote Originally Posted by FLATKITTY View Post
    ]I do not think that it is common & I tend to agree w/your sources. However, keep in mind that this engine was never designed for competition usage. The T-Bird Super Coupe was as close as it ever got to high performance.
    For production cars, but Ford used the engines in the 90s for the V6 Cup series. Technically Ford used an SVO block for this that was beefed up, but more than a few folks have built clones of the engines using the standard 3.8L block and boring/stroking these to 4.5L. All the SVO parts work on a 3.8L block.



    If you use the SVO block (M-6010-E380) you can get 312 inches out of them. All the SVO V6 parts were produced from like 89 to 91, so they are thin on the ground these days, but the engine has some faithful followers that use them for racing.

    Information about the parts and engines is hard to get, but Super Ford did a complete tear down of the motors with a lot of technical details back in 1989. PDFs of the article were available on the web a few years ago but since have been taken down. I've got copies somewhere if you're interested.

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    Of course , less than 54% front weight.
    Measure the pan to pickup value. Try for a little less than 1/2in. 10-12mm is good. Get rid of the inverted tapered pickup ,make a straight round sided pick up guide, around the actual tube.
    Weld in small guide plates surrounding the pickup so that the oil is diverted towards the PU.
    Use the dam accusump and be done with it.

    When do Mustangs race at night?? The only night races are Chumpcar and the Mustangs have not needed lights yet..
    Not Really , A Mustang won a Texas race.
    125 cars @ Daytona, 5/27
    Last edited by Flyinglizard; 05-21-2012 at 12:34 PM.
    Mike Ogren , FWDracingguide.com, 352.4288.983 ,http://www.ogren-engineering.com/

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    I've got a convex Longacre mirror in my car, and I'm not hugely thrilled with it. In our Lemons Miata, we're using just a clip-on mirror cover that's curved laterally, not convex. it doesn't change the focusing and depth perception near as much as what my Longacre does. It's also closer to my head and I have a pretty wide field of vision in it because of it. I prefer that mirror over the Longacre one in my car (which was 4x the price!)

    In either car/mirror though, I can see everything from my helmet to about halfway out the right door. Thus I have no need for a right side mirror. On the left side, I use a small "F1 type" curved mirror: https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...p?Product=5121


    Keep in mind that you don't really need to be able to focus on a car coming up behind you. I glance at the mirrors and see if there's a fuzzy dot in it. If so, I have tons of room. If there's a bigger blob, I pay more attention. If I'm on a straight and can see the blob getting bigger, then I know I'd better be ready for a pass by a faster car.

    That said, your run group includes GT1-3, so you have some fast cars running with you. it's a bit different than running STU where you're more equally matched in power and there's not at much closing speed. I have a lot more time to react to oncoming traffic at the end of a straight when they're passing me at 5-10mph differential vs. 50+mph!!

    Will you be at TWS this weekend? would be happy to let you take a look at the mirrors I have set up in my car.. I think I have extra mounting brackets and possibly a leftover longacre that I cracked a corner on first installation. Let me know by tonight and I'll toss them in the trailer.
    Houston Region
    STU Nissan 240SX
    EProd RX7

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    You guys might want to look at some baffles in the pan, windage trays, and a crank scraper. While the latter suggestion isn't necessarily involved in oil control for scavenging it can help with power and "while you're in there" you might as well do it up right.

  17. #17

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    Ron Earp: "For production cars, but Ford used the engines in the '90s for the V6 Cup series. Technically Ford used an SVO block for this that was beefed up, but more than a few folks have built clones of the engines using the standard 3.8L block & boring/stroking these to 4.5L. All the SVO parts work on a 3.8L block."

    Interesting. As I have never taken an interest in the Ford I6/V6 until this IT project, that engine never crossed my radar. I went back thru my old Ford Performance catalogs & TAH DA!!! ... there it was. Thank you for the info. Those heads should help improve my F/R weight issue also.

  18. #18

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    Flyinglizard: "Measure the pan to pickup value. Get rid of the inverted tapered pickup & make a straight round sided pick up guide, around the actual tube. Weld in small guide plates surrounding the pickup so that the oil is diverted towards the PU. Use the damn Accusump & be done w/it."

    The basic V6 OE aluminum oil pan is a deep sump unit & is actually better than the OE pan on the V8. However, w/that said, my problem was either the pump &/or filter. I made the 'mistake' of replacing both ... & the problem was a 'no-show' at the next race. I say 'mistake' as I should have initially replaced the filter ONLY, then, if necessary, follow it up w/a pump replacement. At some point down the line, I may reinstall the original pump which could isolate the Motorcraft filter as the problem. Anyway, as stated above, the oil pressure was perfect w/zero drop at any point on the track at my 2nd race.
    Last edited by FLATKITTY; 08-18-2012 at 02:05 AM.

  19. #19

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    Matt93SE: "That said, your run group includes GT1-3, so you have some fast cars running w/you. I have a lot more time to react to oncoming traffic at the end of a straight when they're passing me at 5-10 mph differential vs. 50+ mph!"

    I think that by fully utilizing the adjustments on the HANR device, the mirror issue is not nearly as severe as it was in the beginning. And, as someone here told me ... it's just a matter of getting used to it.

  20. #20

    Default Heading out ...

    OK, I have two (2) races under the belt (TX Motor Speedway & Eagles Canyon) so it's time to "leave the corral" w/the Mustang. Will be doing the ARRC at Road Atlanta (Nov 3/4), then one (1) week later at Palm Beach (Nov 10/11) & finally the long course at Sebring (Nov 24/25). Unless sumpin' comes up over the winter, my next race (& 1st race in 2013) will be at Homestead in January. After that, I just start connecting the dots until I hit every SCCA track in the lower 48.

    BTW, does anyone know if Canada has IT classes or anything comparable should I choose to make a run for the border?

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