New IT class revealed at National Convention

[Flyinglizard]

FWIW, I have 2-3 SCCA, ITB and HP cars, 2 Chumpcars, 1 NASA SM. and prep many more..

The Chumpcar racing is just like SCCA regional racing, driver quality wise.
The speed is about ITA lap times for the winners. ITA speeds for 7 hr, 14 hr, 24 hrs. All on Treadwear 190 tires. The tires last about 30hrs on our light( 1750#) VW
The front running cars are purpose built. IE I have water cooled brakes, Big rad, some compression, no roof, well gutted. rear steer, custom ball joints, etc.

The cage rules exceed SCCA IT cages by a good bit. IE the complete Rocker/sill is encouraged to be attached. No max square in rule.
Driver side door bars are the same. You may cut the roof off and gut the inner panels. No bars past the strut/crush zones. Fuel cells or stock tanks.
The hoods may be gutted , vented, removed , (if you have a windshield and roof)

Chumpcar is not a joke. It is a fun way to run on great tracks for long races.
Chumpcar is not perfect. the 500$ is BS. The wheel/brake rules promote huge tires, not good, IMHO.
I have proposed a two class deal with the wheel size as the break at 7in, CCL and CCU.
John( MR head Chump) has shot it down each timeBTW.

Chumpcar has about 2900 drivers for 2011, they are doing something right. 40plus races.
25hr of Nelson had 75 ish cars,
14hrs @ Sebring had about 82 cars
How can SCCA tie onto this bus??

IMHO, SCCA would be wise to allow the Chumps/lemons drivers, credit for one school by showing 2 or more races on their logs.( 4-6 hrs driving time per race. )
Many of the drivers that rent my cars have Skippy, Bondurant, SCCA, IMSA exp. A huge cross section of well funded drivers .

I would be happy advise the Class and help setup basic rules and license considerations.
ITJ is just not verynice tho.
I like Crap Can Limited,CCL and Crap can unlimited , CCU

[Flyinglizard]

The key to getting these guys is racing in the dark!! in the rain. yeah, bring it on.
I had three drivers @ Sebring flipping coins to finish the race , in the dark, and raining.


HEy K. I'll take that jet if it is caged. We are running Sebring, NOLA, RA, Daytona.
hit me with a pic. please.
MM

[gran racing]

because people will let them drive for free.

I don't agree.Like I said, some of the guys who were there are PAID pro drivers. There is something to be said about this type of racing and the fun aspect. It's not like seats are expensive. I paid $750 in total which included tires, entry fee, fantastic food...pretty much everything. Crash damage liability was also an big attraction for me. With other teams I've looked into including your Pablo, I might be able to afford the rental fee but certainly not the repair bills even if it's a fair rate. These "crap cans" people can.

[Knestis]

I don't see any reason that the real south wouldn't work. Take a look...

K

[Flyinglizard]

I'll work something out withyou.
MM

[MMiskoe]

Well, cheap cars or not, if anyone hasn't recognized that Chumpcar & Lemon's are positively kicking SCCA's ass for entries it would only be due to you not paying attention. At least for now, these two organizations have hit on a plan that seems to attract people. Maybe it won't last. But for now it's working. SCCA would be smart to realize the pool to fish from is not unlimited, but the number of people fishing for entries has gone up, thus reducing the catch. Allowing cars from other organizations is one way to do it.

Differences in ITE from region to region is dumb. There should be a catch-all class, (or a few for speed differentials), that allow NASA, EMRA, PCA, BMWCC, Chump, Lemons all a place to play w/o questions asked provided they meet safety regs. People already build cubic dollar ITE cars in the northeast, I assume in other areas too.

Even in Lemon's, there are no $500 cars winning the events. I've been to three of them, won one outright and got good looks at at least 3 overall winning cars. No way you're going to go out and build one from scratch, stay under budget and hope to win. All the winning cars had people behind them w/ lots of experience with either that particular car, or endurance racing, or both (both in my case).

You can go racing for cheap, you can't win for cheap. Those two are mutually exclusive.

[lateapex911]

I don't see any reason that the real south wouldn't work. Take a look...

K

Oooo, I see something orange and interesting in the background of that lower shot. I'm surprised they even let that jetta in the same building, LOL

[forestdweller37]

Newbie de-lurking here. I've not posted much if any on this forum, but I thought I might have something to add to this discussion. As to my background, I'm a 10 year SCCA member and Chumpcar racer who's crossing over to SCCA club racing. I earned my novice permit a year ago driving a Chumpcar. This year I plan to run some Regionals in SM and ITA.

A few thoughts:
Cost: Chumpcars are not at all cheap to build for new racers. The rules for roll cages and most safety gear are very similar to SCCA. The cost is the same. (e.g. The cage in our chump miata cost us $3k at a local race shop.) There's a lot of new/fresh parts to buy to make the cars track worthy. Remember, we're building these things to be driven hard for 24 straight hours. Breaking down in the first hour makes for an expensive un-fun weekend. Hubs, wheel bearings, cooling systems, etc. have to be in excellent mechanical condition. The braking systems are generally re-built with stock parts and racing pads. Probably 50% of the cars at a Chump race will be set up for video, data, and/or radio communication. The only thing they're not doing is spending money on (very many) high performance parts or true race engine builds. Where individuals save money is by sharing the costs of building, transporting, etc. and by not having to purchase Hoosiers. Dunlop Star Specs are close to being the "spec" tire for Chumpcar. We've flogged a set for 14 hours. They look like they could have gone well past 18. Typical Lat G numbers are 1.1-1.15.

Speed: Looking at some NASA Spec Miata results from the short course at BIR shows fast lap times of 1:56.476 and 1:57.319 for first and second places respectively. The three quickest drivers on my chump team have logged lap times in the low 1:59-2:01 range. Our 1.6 Miata is an upper mid-pack car. We'll typically be passed by some high-powered Hondas, BMW 325's, and that darn V8 Lexus. (How fast is a B-Spec again?)

Crashing/rough driving: We have about 24 Chumpcar race hours on our car with zero incidents of contact. Remember every Chumpcar is at least 3/4's borrowed from the other team members. Would you really want to be the one to explain to your 3+ team mates why you bent their race car? The endurance format generally allows for patience in making a pass too.

SCCA tech: Been there, done that...with a Chumpcar. There are nuances between the rule sets that cause problems. Very few if any would be full-on safety issues. Chumpcar allows things like anti-lock brakes and removing the dash. The basic GCR does not. The "neat and clean" and missing body work rules also come into play. Unlike SCCA, there are no minimum weights in Chumpcar. Chump requires all windows except the windshield to be removed or replaced with Lexan. A person building a dual usage car would pretty much need to plan for it from the start.

SCCA Licensing: When I ask other Chump drivers if they'd consider giving SCCA a try, the licensing issue is typically one of the first reasons/excuses given for not doing so. Their perception is that it's a big expensive ordeal. At my Region's annual driver's meeting, I asked if SCCA's new "mentoring" licensing program could utilize observed participation in a Chump race as a basis for issuing a novice permit. Seat time is typically the second reason they use for not crossing over to SCCA.

I don't think Oregon, or any other region, will have much luck attracting the existing crapcan racecars simply by offering a class for them. The licensing, tech, and shared car ownership will be stumbling blocks to any driver who wants to give SCCA a try with his/her team's car. With that said, these “chumps” are out there turning wrenches, building caged race cars, and learning racecraft. SCCA needs to find a way to make them feel welcome because many have the perception that they would not be.

Other Regions besides Oregon have classes similar to ITJ. Perhaps some some cross-region/cross division communication on the interweb could be used to develop a "standard" SCCA-friendly rule set for them. Knowing that the class was available in multiple regions would make it more attractive to individuals looking for less expensive racing. Something similar was done several years ago amongst the autocrossers who wanted a Street Touring class for their sports cars. They formed a Yahoo group to discuss it and hammered out a rule set. It was voted on and accepted by some larger regions, but never implemented due to the National office producing their own version of the class (appearing in April!) These days, something like a forum thread and google docs could help facilitate the process.

Chumpcar is not perfect. A lot of people aren't into the "themes." Many don't like digging through Craigslist everyday to try and prove or re-prove that a version of their $1500 donor car could have been bought for $500. Chumpcar drops the ball in making entry lists available to the world, publishing results, or even being on the radar for contingency. Race starts involve the cars circling the track randomly spread out until the green flag is flown. Some tracks are "dumbed down" for the novice drivers. An example would be using the "bend" before the "kink" at Road America.

The trick is to make SCCA club racing appear even cooler, more fun, and easily accessible.

Apologies for such a long post.
-Chris

[dickita15]

Chris, thanks for the informative post. I think many of the problems attracting people from chumps to SCCA are perception and could be overcome just by demystifying the process and making them feel welcome. On of advantages of SCCA is in my opinion we are the best at serious competition. Where we sometimes fall down is we get a bit wrapped up in that serious competition and forget to make easy and fun.

[JLawton]

I see this as a perfect way to get guys to cross over to SCCA. I agree, I think SCCA should embrace it.

[924Guy]

Excellent post, Chris, this is exactly the kind of feedback we need for such a program...

[RacerBill]

More cars = more competition
More cars = keep entry fees low

Let's fill up those tracks! Make it happen!!!!!!

[Flyinglizard]

SCCA vs Chumpcar issues:
SCCA has 3 or 4 20-40min sessions, spread out over two days. Lots of down time.
Chumpcar has a single 7 to24 hr race and than nothing. , No down time. Lots of track time.

SCCA requires 2 schools for a novice permit. , cost is $1k min.
Chumpcar requires a single class room session and puts you on track. Somehow this works way better than it should.. The facts are that the very slow/new drivers get easily passed by the more experienced drivers and most have a steep learning curve.
The 4 drivers required also help each other out, like a team of personal coaches, IMHO.
My cars have done about 100hrs ontrack with Chump and have had no car to car contact. The endurance mind set , along with the speed differential keep this a low contact race.

My teams have a lot of ex SCCA guys that have crossed over TO Chumpcar, not the other way. The Chumpcar thing is viewed as a step up and away from the SCCA hassle and too many classes.
Too many classes, 2,3,4 or 5 cars per class=Bad

I would love to help SCCA make this work.
Required would be Novice permits issued for ex SCCA,and multi race Chumps.
Open/ one or two class 6 hr endurance races, preferably @ Night . ( 6 hr , 2 hr limit, 3 drivers per car, no fuel rigs!!))

Pack the track time into one day.
I would love to see a SCCA,regional weekend with split groups for sat and Sun. No reason that we should have to be there for 2 days for 4 short sessions.

Typical Chump transport may be 8-12 hrs driving. They wont want to drive that far for 2 hrs track time. Most wont go far for a single 7 hr race.
3/4 of my drivers fly in@ 1000 miles or more.

We need to appeal to these well funded racers , by increasing track time, making access easy, decreasing down time.

The best idea would be to add it to a World Challenge week end as a filler, fri eve or some other slow time. Keep the 1000$ entry fee and let em run. I could sell that.
MM

[rydermike]

Well said ^^^^^ . Chump is somewhat like short track racing when it comes to your time , You show up race and head home , and even if they are a double 7 hour race weekend , it's not like doing a 9am session then another in the afternoon and all the downtime.Heck , Chump dosen't even bother with qualifying sessions , and considering the lenth of the races it really wouldn't matter anyway.

[downingracing]

I like the cross-over concepts and the alternative licensing paths being worked on. But I'm one of the people who like the long race weekend. I like having a session in the morning and one in the afternoon. This gives me plenty of time to watch my friend’s race and hang out at the track. And additional time to fix any ‘oops’ that happens during a qualifying session or race. A single day event does not appeal to me. I consider a race weekend to be a vacation like event that I do several times a year. Friday to Sunday (or Monday if the tow is long) is fine with me.

Now a 4 race weekend (with blind draw start for race #1) is something that sounds interesting to me. Many of our race weekends around here are 1 qualifying session Sat. with a race in the afternoon - followed by a qualifying race Sun morning and a final race Sun afternoon.

[StephenB]

I agree 100 percent with matt. I would look for alternate events if they were 1 day events.

MM, since chump cars are a step up how would you suggest to convince them to step back down to our type of events without redesigning what we already do. or is that just not possible?

Stephen

[Simon T.]

I would love to help SCCA make this work.
Required would be Novice permits issued for ex SCCA,and multi race Chumps.
Open/ one or two class 6 hr endurance races, preferably @ Night . ( 6 hr , 2 hr limit, 3 drivers per car, no fuel rigs!!))

Many tracks wouldn't easily allow that nor would many workers want to do that.

Pack the track time into one day.
I would love to see a SCCA,regional weekend with split groups for sat and Sun. No reason that we should have to be there for 2 days for 4 short sessions.

I personally like down time, it gives time to hang out with friends, fix things, and just enjoy time with others sharing a common interest. I like the idea of SCCA having better endurance racing, but I think it could easily be done with a good endurance series for IT cars and not needing junk cars, many drivers are turned off by the Chump/Lemons thing because it lacks credibility in the racing world as a legit form of racing and many teams/drivers show up completely new and can ruin your day.

The best idea would be to add it to a World Challenge week end as a filler, fri eve or some other slow time. Keep the 1000$ entry fee and let em run. I could sell that.
MM

If you really just recommended a Chump type class runs during a World Challenge weekend, that will NEVER happen. SCCA Pro would run away laughing before you could even finish a proposal.

.....

[rydermike]

.....

REALLY? You think these guys are more dangerous because they run a different series and "will ruin your weekend" You really need to see an event , with the considerable difference in cars (They run from slowish ITC like cars right on thru to V-8 Camaro/Mustang/Crown vic cop cars to a huge numer of Barbie Malibu Wagens)And there is less contact in a season than the avg club weekend of spec miata or spec club racer.And no matter what type race course or teams show up , YES any single bonehead move can screw someone over.

[rydermike]

Here is a link to a very truthful article : http://www.thecalifornian.com/articl...TYLE/203100307
Please read with an open mind

[Simon T.]

REALLY? You think these guys are more dangerous because they run a different series and "will ruin your weekend" You really need to see an event , with the considerable difference in cars (They run from slowish ITC like cars right on thru to V-8 Camaro/Mustang/Crown vic cop cars to a huge numer of Barbie Malibu Wagens)And there is less contact in a season than the avg club weekend of spec miata or spec club racer.And no matter what type race course or teams show up , YES any single bonehead move can screw someone over.

No, some people think that. However it is true there are some bone head moves at these races, the RA round was stopped like 4 or 5 times I think. Do you trust a driver that went to one night of a classroom session for an hour to be racing wheel to wheel with you or someone that at least went to a legit school? Don't get me wrong, it works, because you could spot the new drivers racing and they do well at avoiding other cars, but stuff happens and I just think some people would agree it's far more likely to happen with someone extremely new than someone who had more training experience. The Road Atlanta race didn't have any major wrecks from what I can remember, the biggest issues being broken cars, a couple fires, and slicking down the track.

I've been to event and plan on racing some of them with the new car, I'm just being realistic.