To build or not to build

[raffaelli]

So it seems that the general consensus is:
1. Car would be competitive in ITA
2. Car would also be competitive in ITB.
3. Legality of the car is somewhat in question in ITA because of the lack of the sunroof which we have to remove regardless.
4. Much more expensive to build vs. buy

It is way more expensive to build than to buy. I went against the very good advise from the very best mentors on this site and built a car. Money poured out as compared to buying on, easily 2:1 and 5 digits came in a hurry. On top of that there was an entire season of trying to get stuff right and a bunch of missed events.

That said, I made the right choice for me to build. For me, the experience was totally worth it as I had zero car experience prior.

However, my next car....will be purchased.

[R2 Racing]

I actually have a very quick '92 ITB DX hatchback that I'm looking to sell. Thought I had it sold in the past couple of days, but looks like that's falling through. It won the ARRC in 2010, and was poised to possibly repeat in 2011 before a brake problem forced me to withdraw while running in second during the race. It's definitely one of the fastest ITB cars in the country, and just needs fresh belts to be race ready. I still haven't officially listed it publicly yet, as I just haven't got around to it while trying to complete a lot of work on the rest of my cars. Only reason I'm looking to sell is to "thin the hurd". Easily the most fun to drive and easiest to work on car I've ever experienced, with Honda reliability, consistency, and parts support. If you'd like to talk about it, feel free to email me at "kevin at ruckracing dot com".

[benspeed]

When I started racing I looked at what was winning and bought a built car and went out and raced competitively.

I listened to the advice and benefited from it tremendously as a newb. One of my best buds didn't take advice and built his first car and has $25k in an ITA car that still hasn't finished a race....he could be running a top car in any IT class and winning races instead of fiddling with the car...

[lateapex911]

As an FYI, Ruck bleeds Honda blood. HE's been around them and knows them well, and has had an ITC (?), ITB, ITA and ITS Honda in the stable over the years. I think the S, the A and the B cars have all won the ARRC or set track records someplace.

So, if nothing else, listen to his words of wisdom, he knows from what he speaks.

[R2 Racing]

As an FYI, Ruck bleeds Honda blood. HE's been around them and knows them well, and has had an ITC (?), ITB, ITA and ITS Honda in the stable over the years. I think the S, the A and the B cars have all won the ARRC or set track records someplace.

So, if nothing else, listen to his words of wisdom, he knows from what he speaks.

Thanks, Jake. I do still have my ITC '85 Civic H/B too, which I'm also looking to sell. The ITS Prelude is the only one that's gone. My ITS, ITA, ITB, & ITC Honda's have all won Divisional Championships & set track records, while the ITA & ITB cars have also won ARRC's. Then there's that FP car, that hasn't done too bad for itself either. Been tweaking on Honda's for 17 years now, and for 13 years in SCCA Club Racing.

[Chip42]

keep in mind ITA and ITB are almost always on the track at the same time.

not in the SEDIV, usually they pair ITB/C with FP/HP and ITA and S into another group.

So it seems that the general consensus is:
1. Car would be competitive in ITA
2. Car would also be competitive in ITB.
3. Legality of the car is somewhat in question in ITA because of the lack of the sunroof which we have to remove regardless.
4. Much more expensive to build vs. buy

you got it. in order of importance, though, I'd say it's 4, 3, 2, 1. just sayin.

What's the best place to find cars for sale. I checked this forum, but there are only a couple of cars

here, racingjunk.com, the brown board, ebay believe it or not, the local and national SCCA magazines, etc... between Tristan Herbert's Golf and Kevin Ruck's civic being for sale, you can BUY some of the best ITB cars in the country. if you do, don't expect to be as fast as them right out of the box, though. seat time rules, some natural talent doesn't hurt either.

whatever you choose, let us know if you need guidance, support, or anything else (like those 15x6" wheels )- we're here to help.

also know that A and B are both strong in the CFR, and sediv. ITA is dominated by miatas, with a bunch of integras, civics, and CRX's mixed in, while ITB is heavy on VW, but there's also a bunch of corollas, MR2s, civics, accords, preludes, etc... in the sediv. in our stables alone there are 7 ITB cars...

[HQHITA]

If you guys keep making so much sense, I won't know what to do! Thanks for the advice and all the replies. Makes a ton of sense.

Here's a little more info so you can get a better feel what I am thinking.

The car basically cost me nothing, but I have a D16z6 that I acquired that I already paid for it to be balanced and blue printed. I have a clutch and FW that's the same. There has been some investment in getting all the other parts as well to make it an Si. Plus bearings, pumps, gasket set is in my possession as well. I own a race seat, mounts, harness, fuel cell, window net.

I can't really sell the DX to someone on the street because I sold the a/c system out if it and I have a spun bearing...

Also, Building the car would be a team building activity at the office that could inspire some of the techs.

However, i cant discount you guy's advice which would basically mean to part out what I have at a loss and buy a ready made car. But I am really torn. I've had the car and the parts for almost two years btw... Just waiting for the right time.

Is there an easy button anywhere?

$4500 for an ITA CRX is soooo cheap too. Couldn't get a donor car and a cage for that probably...

[HQHITA]

Thanks for the offers guys, but I am pretty set on ITA. Either in this car to build or buying a CRX from someone

[ajmr2]

I agree. Thats the whole reason I wanted to get into ITA. I just checked a couple results for Sebring and ITA is almost twice as many participants as ITB...

Ditto on buying a built and log booked car, whatever the class. Just remember this. Fewer guys in your class means a better chance of winning! I won my first 2 races in 20 years last year when no one else showed up in my class and I had a blast racing 30+ other guys! Yeah, I got some grief about it from my ITB buddies, but all I had to do was show them my trophy and checkered flag!
I'd look at eBay too.

[Matt93SE]

Nothing stopping you from building a car if you want to. I insisted on building my own and wouldn't question doing it again... BUT building my own car from scratch was the point of the project.

If going the fastest for the cheapest- NOW- is your goal, then buying a car is the best way to do that. If you want to spend the time drinking some beers with your buds and build a car from scratch, then take a season (or three) making it competitive, then don't hold back.

[gran racing]

Build it, keep it a low-ish buck car, do NOT fall into the trap of pouring lots of cash into the car (which you will), gain some racing experience, sell the car for a well-build one. Although this will never work because you will find yourself spending more and more money as well as time, then feel like if only one more thing were done...then another...then another, and the cycle continues.

[HQHITA]

Nothing stopping you from building a car if you want to. I insisted on building my own and wouldn't question doing it again... BUT building my own car from scratch was the point of the project.

If going the fastest for the cheapest- NOW- is your goal, then buying a car is the best way to do that. If you want to spend the time drinking some beers with your buds and build a car from scratch, then take a season (or three) making it competitive, then don't hold back.

Thanks. THis might be what I was waiting to hear. That might be the point of the whole deal. Build the car, shoot the s**t, race it, make it better, etc...

[HQHITA]

Build it, keep it a low-ish buck car, do NOT fall into the trap of pouring lots of cash into the car (which you will), gain some racing experience, sell the car for a well-build one. Although this will never work because you will find yourself spending more and more money as well as time, then feel like if only one more thing were done...then another...then another, and the cycle continues.

THat would be best case. Ideally, ITA for a while then win the lotto and race Porsche Cup cars...

Hey one can dream right?

[Matt93SE]

..... There's always LeMons and ChumpCar too. :eek: ...

As Dave Gran said too, you'll wind up throwing piles of money at the thing in development if you really want to make it fast. That's where you benefit from buying a built car.
I missed buying an old Speedworld Challenge car a few years ago and I REALLY wish I'd have done it now. It was a roller for like $2200, but included just about everything but the engine and ECU. But I was broke and couldn't afford to build it if I wanted to. since then, I've bought a car, put a cage in it, and am still building the thing.. I'm nowhere near the prep level of that car and I've got probably $15k into this one now.

Basically I'm doing exactly what Dave said above NOT to do.

[gran racing]

Don't feel bad Matt, I did the same thing.

[HQHITA]

Don't feel bad Matt, I did the same thing.

That was going to be a question I was going to ask. FOr everyone that's saying don't build it!! Buy one! How many actually bought vs. built the car.

I think building might be part of the process...

Here I go, Hopefully see you guys soon (though $15,000 later)

[lateapex911]

The smart ones learn from the mistakes. The rest of us just advise others, LOL

[HQHITA]

The smart ones learn from the mistakes. The rest of us just advise others, LOL

It's only money right? I'm sure I'm going to advise someone: don't build a car, buy one made, etc...

I think second car will be bought when funds allow...

[marka]

Howdy,

Build it, keep it a low-ish buck car, do NOT fall into the trap of pouring lots of cash into the car (which you will), gain some racing experience, sell the car for a well-build one. Although this will never work because you will find yourself spending more and more money as well as time, then feel like if only one more thing were done...then another...then another, and the cycle continues.

FWIW, this was my plan for my ITA Neon, which was a "buy it, don't build it" thing. Its still my plan, but at this point I've got probably $5k to $7k (I don't really want to know) into a car that isn't done yet (though I think I've spent most of the money. Wait. Was that the sound of my block cracking as I said that? :-). I can't imagine that I'll ever be able to sell the car for anything like that kinda money.

But its still the plan... I'm resisting the urge to get a Neon shell to put a real cage in, vs the modified bolt in one in my current car. I'm resisting the urge to build the motor. Etc. I figure if I'm going to get really serious, I should do it with something like an ITA miata or perhaps another 'clearly the car to have in the class' choice.

I will say that "buy it built" means you need to be willing to deal with stuff that isn't to your personal standards. Nearly all the money going into my car is some level of "I want it to go faster" or "I don't like that". I've been lucky in that there haven't been any nasty surprises or anything... The car is basically what I thought it was. But there's still things where when I look at how it was done, I decide to redo it which takes time and sometimes money.

Mark

(In hindsight, I'd have bought a different car if I'd known what the future was going to bring. Either Child's "more ITA Neons and parts than you can fit in your trailer" deal, or maybe the ITB Golf that's for sale now. But those deals weren't out there when I was looking. There was an ITA civic sedan that looked like a good build though, and I should've probably lowballed him.)

[gran racing]

It's only money right?

Not even close. I know you said your shop and guys would enjoy several building aspects, but lets not forget what it really takes to build a quality car (it goes well beyond just the basics). There's a stupid number of hours to get things figured out. I absolutely would never have built my car again look back at things.

The other big difference IMO right now is that there are multiple cars which can be bought at a modest price, and it's the driver whose not taking it up front versus the car. In this thread alone, you're hearing about three or more guys who have cars that will be racing in other categories and whose cars will otherwise sit.

You want a project car for the boys? I like the previous idea. Build a Chump Car and drive it as a team. Buy your car and get out there racing something nice right away.