Head and Neck Haters...Watch This

[tom_sprecher]

For me it was the amount of time and work involved vs. the entertainment I was getting out of racing was no longer worth it. Having to buy a H&N, new helmet, license and get yet another physical pushed it over the edge.

My car is up for sale here. https://improvedtouring.com...ad.php?t=29956 I know it's asking top dollar, but am more than willing to negotiate.

While it is for sale I'll do test days at Rd Atl and Little Talladega. I'm really looking for some track time that can be done in one day. Show up around 9-10, run some sessions, be home by 6, sleep in my own bed to get up and do something else the next day. Previously, since I would help paddock park for test days my race weekend would start at 12 on Thursday. I no longer have any desire to spend 4 days at the track. I don't even spend four days on vacation.

If I can't do it in one day, I'm out. Plus, my son and I might get a couple of dirt bikes to play in the mountains with instead. Again, only one day required.

[Flyinglizard]

Bring your son to Chumpcar, run one day and go home.
What ever, spend the time with your kids doing something.

[Kai Noeske]

Crossposting what I wrote over at the sandbox, with expletives removed:

This is about the argument "No proof that this accident would have been deadly without a HNR" that some of you raised above.

That argument is moot and completely misses the point. It is not just about life and death - it is about head and neck *injuries*, and many of you don't seem to know these injuries' consequences. Any massive whiplash (and that impact WOULD have been one) includes a severe concussion, and injuries to the spine.

We know that non-fracture, soft-tissue spine injuries stay with you for a long time, and can give you a hard time for years, if not the rest of your life.

However, much worse, we have recently learned about repetitive head injury syndrome: A concussion is not just a bruised brain that goes away. It causes microscopic injuries and changes to your brain, and if it happens repeatedly, it can fry your brain really badly in many ways (neurological performance, mental health) and make it very sensitive to more concussions. Google "Repetitive Head Injury Syndrome" - it's bad. Observed in football players, boxers, and the like.

I know what I am talking about. Two heavy whiplashes when I was hit in traffic accidents, and one bike accident where I crashed into a driving car (my fault), with no helmet, totaling a 7 yr old Citroen with my body - mostly my head, 27 stitches, massive concussion that affected my brain function for 6 months or more. Apart from a sensitive neck that periodically gives me shit, I now get concussion symptoms from relatively minor impacts to my head - mild hit in a Karate tournament, the classic standing up into an open kitchen cabinet door, etc.

Wearing a HNR for me is not just an "I don't want to die" thing. It is an "I want to keep blows to my brain to a minimum" thing, because also the non-lethal blows are really effing bad.

[JLawton]

I really have no issues with the mandate to wear a device. My issue is two fold. One, I have a device that is now deemed "unsafe" by an organization that is representing the manufacturers. Two, my choice is limited because of the small amount of knowledge I have of the whole thing seems to me to be a huge conflict of interest.

(And yes, I wrote several letters complaining about both issues)

I don't mind shelling out $500-$600 to increase my safety (to what ever degree you want to argue) while racing. I WISH my device was the biggest expense over a season........... In fact, I wish it was the biggest exepnse I have for one weekend!!!

So I kinda gotta call BS on the "expense" argument. Spread out over the life of the device it's a drop in the bucket. You can't complain about the H&N mandate expensing you out of racing.............


.

[Kai Noeske]

I really have no issues with the mandate to wear a device. My issue is two fold. One, I have a device that is now deemed "unsafe" by an organization that is representing the manufacturers. Two, my choice is limited because of the small amount of knowledge I have of the whole thing seems to me to be a huge conflict of interest.

(And yes, I wrote several letters complaining about both issues)

I don't mind shelling out $500-$600 to increase my safety (to what ever degree you want to argue) while racing. I WISH my device was the biggest expense over a season........... In fact, I wish it was the biggest exepnse I have for one weekend!!!

So I kinda gotta call BS on the "expense" argument. Spread out over the life of the device it's a drop in the bucket. You can't complain about the H&N mandate expensing you out of racing.............


.

Agreed - and while some say that the likelihood of a fatal HN injury from a frontal impact is low in club racing, everyone knows that it is *almost certain* to get into one or several accidents in your club racing career that have a forward velocity component - even getting rear-ended, or hitting the wall backwards, whips your head forward. Every one of those will injure your neck and brain through the classic whiplash mechanism. If you consider that, then a HNR is a small-ish investment that has a close to certain lifetime likelihood of making a soft tissue injury much less bad than it could be.

[Russ Myers]

How did I ever live through my wreck in the esses at Rd. Atlanta? I really don't have the faintest idea. I really should be quite dead .

Russ

[jjjanos]

even getting rear-ended, or hitting the wall backwards, whips your head forward.

Ummmm, you need to look at the signs on the direction vectors in that equation....

[pitbull113]

reading through all this BS about the H&N mandate i've read good reasons for and against wearing a H&N device but I haven't read one good reason why as an adult i'm being forced to wear one. I should be able to make that decision myself.

[tom_sprecher]

reading through all this BS about the H&N mandate i've read good reasons for and against wearing a H&N device but I haven't read one good reason why as an adult i'm being forced to wear one. I should be able to make that decision myself.

The BOD's fear that if they did not mandate use, like most other sanctioning bodies, the Club wiuld be liable in the case on serious injury or death.

Or at least that's how a couple of Directors explained it to me.

BTW I agree with you.

[red986s]

I have no doubt that this type of argument has come up multiple times back in SCCAs past.

"My GOD! The club is mandating all racers where helmets! I quit!"

"Can you believe the new rule requiring safety belts!? I should just quit!"

"You've got to be kidding me, the club is forcing us to where fire suits! THAT'S IT, I QUIT!"

So go ahead, quit. Just less folks for the rest of us to pass.

[lateapex911]

I have no doubt that this type of argument has come up multiple times back in SCCAs past.

"My GOD! The club is mandating all racers where helmets! I quit!"

"Can you believe the new rule requiring safety belts!? I should just quit!"

"You've got to be kidding me, the club is forcing us to where fire suits! THAT'S IT, I QUIT!"

So go ahead, quit. Just less folks for the rest of us to pass.

Read up.
The number of people who are in that camp (AGAINST any device) are the vast minority. Most are upset at the club forcing us to choose among a limited set of choices.
It's a unique situation with no real parallel.

[red986s]

Read up.
The number of people who are in that camp (AGAINST any device) are the vast minority. Most are upset at the club forcing us to choose among a limited set of choices.
It's a unique situation with no real parallel.

Thanks Jake, I have read about, at nauseum, the argument. I heard about the requirement at the beginning of 2011. Saved my money and preparing to by one. I have yet to read ANYTHING on the limited choices we have injuring anyone who has used one in an accident. What bothers me are those who say they are going to quit over it. Aren't all our choices for safety equip limited by certification and age (ie belts, helmet, suit)?

[biovic]

From personal experience of a hard frontal impact back in 2006 at NHIS between my car and a concrete jersey barrier, going from 55mph to 0 in less than a second (knocked over barrier so probably traveled 3 feet), I believe my H&N (happened to be a HANS) saved my life or at least prevented serious neck injury. I actually had no whiplash (I won't mention the lower spinal compression fractures, I believe due to loose belts (I wouldn't be surprised if some on this board may argue there is a H&N link ). I was probably one of the first half dozen racers in the region to wear a H&N, I think I bought it in 2004 ($900 cost back then) but I felt it was worth the money for increased safety, considering I (we) spend lots more money on go faster parts. I did not do a lot of research on other products (I think the Hutchins was the only other one at the time), but have used the HANS for 8 years and it is part of the safety equipment and routine for me at this point. My post is not meant to debate any device or the certification bodies, etc. Sure, I'm peeved too that the new rules will make me recertify the thing and the hassle of mailing it out to weherever to get checked/inspected and re-stickered, but I'll have to do it if I want to race.

Victor
03 ITA NER

[JLawton]

All the arguing and complaining about mandating is all a moot point as Kirk said. That horse has alread left the barn!!



I do feel bad for those people who have to stop racing because they have to spend $500 every five years..... (or whatever it ends up being before we have to throw them away like we do hemets) That equiates to $100 a year (yeah, I'm a math genius)........ I spend more on fuel in one weekend than that!!

[gran racing]

I'm not in favor of madating the H&NR system. People touting off how this is THE device to save your life are missing the boat. Yes, I've had the joy of totalling a car shoving it into a wall at a high speed (I did not own a H&NR at the time). I'm not convinced that it should be the most important item which should be addressed for safety concerns; just lawer concerns. Look at half of the cages we see in the paddock. Yes Kai, that includes yours. You're also missing both additional nets that the HANS needs.

How are people's seats mounted? Seen some pretty crazy stuff there too. Stricter controls of who we allow out on the track. Physical tests of drivers to really see what the heart attack risk might be. From what information I've seen, that probably represents the highest cause of death in our type of racing.

Stating that the purchase is a drop in the bucket is bunch of BS. Fine, reduce the expensive SCCA dues, don't phase out belts every two years unless FIA certified, new helmets, and now a $600 (screw HANS) purchase? Many people including myself look at what this hobby costs and evaluate if other activities might be a better option. No, the $600 by itself might not break the camels back but it all adds up. Don't complain when the next $600 required item is added to the list.

[BruceG]

I wish that I had a Butler Halo seat and/or dual nets when I was hit on rt2 in Glastonbury by a 5pt buck, Thanksgiving week! The impact was mostly lateral, so perhaps a HANS wouldn't have helped...but the deer's rack shattered the drivers side window, crushed my door, tore off my mirror and damaged the left front fender on my 2011 Subaru Legacy. I was sore both in my neck and lower spine for 2 weeks from the lateral impact.

[RacerBill]

I will be going to the IMIS Show in Indy tomorrow, and I will ask the Simpson/Safety Solutions folks about the 38.1 recertification rule and how Hybrid will implement this.

[downingracing]

From personal experience of a hard frontal impact back in 2006 at NHIS between my car and a concrete jersey barrier, going from 55mph to 0 in less than a second (knocked over barrier so probably traveled 3 feet), I believe my H&N (happened to be a HANS) saved my life or at least prevented serious neck injury. I actually had no whiplash (I won't mention the lower spinal compression fractures, I believe due to loose belts (I wouldn't be surprised if some on this board may argue there is a H&N link ). I was probably one of the first half dozen racers in the region to wear a H&N, I think I bought it in 2004 ($900 cost back then) but I felt it was worth the money for increased safety, considering I (we) spend lots more money on go faster parts. I did not do a lot of research on other products (I think the Hutchins was the only other one at the time), but have used the HANS for 8 years and it is part of the safety equipment and routine for me at this point. My post is not meant to debate any device or the certification bodies, etc. Sure, I'm peeved too that the new rules will make me recertify the thing and the hassle of mailing it out to weherever to get checked/inspected and re-stickered, but I'll have to do it if I want to race.

Victor
03 ITA NER

I had the same type impact with my Civic a few years ago at IRP (ORP). Nose into a single stack of tires and then into the jersey barrier. Was going around ?80? when I hit the brakes and had about a car length of skid marks to the wall. Rolled that barrier away and didn't do the Civic any favors. (Hood thru the windshield, twisted the motor, frame rail touching the front tire...) No H&N device - only belts. I'm 100% sure I didn't need a H&N device to save my life (since I didn't die or get (really) hurt in the crash)...

This argument is always fun. I'm just poking here and am over the whole thing. I'm sure I'll purchase something - the cheapest thing I can get that passes tech. I will use it and have it adjusted to not impact my ability to use the mirrors and I'll 'probably' be racing again in 2012.

And the next step in the quest for safety is to require these devices for every track event! PDX drivers should be required to use these devices as well. Looking at the 'proof' videos all over the interweb - Many accidents are 1 car incidents that the H&N device saves the driver's life. Since many (most) PDX drivers are using vehicles WAY FASTER than most IT cars AND are often lacking things like racing brake pads - They should be required to use these safety devices as well. Using the argument that a mandate of H&N devices will 'kill' PDX is not valid - SAFETY FIRST.

[jjjanos]

I do feel bad for those people who have to stop racing because they have to spend $500 every five years..... (or whatever it ends up being before we have to throw them away like we do hemets) That equiates to $100 a year (yeah, I'm a math genius)........ I spend more on fuel in one weekend than that!!

Before even receiving a tech sticker next year I am looking at:

new belts
a replacement H&N system for the one I have already
a new seat so that the new H&N system offers the same level of protection the now worthless H&N system already gives me.
a new helmet
$400 out of pocket for my physical because the medical plan pays for 1 every 2 years and I needed to get one this year for something else and I'll need one to renew the license next year.
$200(?) in membership and licensing fees
explaining to the Missus why the 2008 $800 xmas present is now useless.

Sooooooooo, I'm basically looking at spending as much as I did on the car itself just to comply with a stupid, assinine regulation adopted by fools and morons.

For that upfront cost, I get to incur $250+ entry fees for less than 1 hour of track time, the operating expenses on the car, the depreciation on the car, the cost of food/fuel/hotel getting to and staying at the track or, if the boy isn't with me, I can skip the hotel but then I don't get to say good morning or put my son to bed.

Or.... I can tell SCCA to shove it, on race weekends - I can be there when my son wakes up, take him into the backyard and play with him, head off to the go-kart track one of the days and drive until my arms fall off for a cost well below what 1 hour of track time costs and get home in time to read my son "Where's My Cow?" and give him a kiss good night.

You do the math.

[gran racing]

Or you can bring your son and family to the track? LOL Not sure about yours, but my soon-to-be four year son LOVES going to racing events, hanging out while I work on the car, and watching daddy go out on the track.