SCCA's answer to the HPDE participants

[Matt Rowe]

When talking about what SCCA is doing to attract the younger crowd I frequently see the comment that SCCA is losing out to organizations like NASA due to their HPDE program. What I don't see is an awareness that SCCA does have a program, Time Trials, designed to attract these people that want to bring their current car out and either learn to "race" or even compete for times.

To be completely forthright I am a little partial to this topic because I have led the Time Trials program for the last several years. But that also means that I have the perspective that the tools exist, the greatest challenge we still have is getting individual regions and event planners to take advantage of the program. While it is true that the NASA style format of a combined racing/HPDE format will work for every area, the rules are intentionally designed to be flexible enough to operate either:

1) within a club racing weekend where car counts are low enough to allow for an extra group
2) in parallel with club racing school weekends
3) standalone Time Trial only events
4) ...?

So, I would ask that for those of you that think (or know) we are losing out on this source of new drivers please encourage your region to consider taking advantage of the Time Trials program. Even better it would be great to offer to help your region as they are frequently maxed out on their current responsibilities.

Either way, if you have any questions I would be happy explain the program or talk about possible improvements.

[Ralf]

Nebraska region brought this up at the last meeting. So far there seems to be some interest. Time will tell how many actually participate.

[jumbojimbo]

Great Lakes was stuck at 3 PDXs per year, now down to 2 with WOR losing their MO date. Last year Cincy tried running an actual level 1 (or whatever it is called) time trial but got few cars and cancelled. WOR used to do a stand alone PDX but for several years all PDXs have been the Friday before a race.

It seems the biggest obstacle in GL is that lots of other organizations run track days and the perception is that virtually all of them do it better or cheaper. We're at the bad end of the cost/value spectrum and also on the hassle factor. More expensive, less fun is the perception.

[downingracing]

This is all my personal opinion (my .02¢): I don’t think that HPDE/PDX generates a large number of racers. I think it is like Autocross – it is its own thing and not a great feeder for w2w. It generates racers – sure, but not in mass. If it did, That N club would have had to split into separate weekends for races and HPDE events due to the number of folks moving from HPDE to racing. I know quite a few folks who HPDE/PDX and most of them are very happy doing just that. They can have a nice street car with little to no modification and enjoy lapping days. No licensing, safety gear (cage/suit/H&N/fire system…), trailer or any of the other expenses that come with racing. Heck – They can even purchase cheap insurance for the PDX to cover their street car if anything happens to it! Now many of the track day folks do trailer their car to the track and have some or all of the safety items – some even use race prepped cars. But they seem happy with just doing the track day and have little to no interest in racing. (At least the ones I’ve talked to). Sure – I’ve seen guys do one PDX and purchase a race car the next week (Dan!). But that seems to be the exception… Some of the guys I’ve talked to said they PDX/HPDE because of the high cost of entry to club racing. These same folks are doing the track day in their $50k Porsche 911 or BMW or S2000 or Z06 Corvette. Wearing a race suit that cost thousands of dollars and running R compound tires, big brakes – upgrades galore to the car….. When I tell them they could have more fun w2w in a Civic – I get a funny look. When I try to explain the way in (i.e. selling the expensive street car and getting a DD beater to afford to go racing), I get the same funny look. If they really wanted to go w2w racing – they could make it happen.

I know around here (GLDiv), we have decent turnout for the PDX events at Mid-Ohio. Everyone I talk to has a good time and some express interest in racing. I also know that there is not time during the weekend for a PDX group. The race groups are still large enough to fill the weekend schedule.

[Knestis]

There are two different questions a play here:

1. How many NASA HPDE participants transition to W2W racing - a relatively small percentage

2. How many NASA racers started out in NASA HPDE - I'd venture that it's a huge majority

Focusing on the first question - which I think Matt is doing? - doesn't answer the question of where SCCA's new racers are going to come from.

Now, for my $.02... I don't think that the SCCA as an organization or a culture, is going to be tolerant of the relatively lower expectations re: safety that are at play in the NASA HPDE ladder.

K

[Marcus Miller]

As a related aside.... You are talking about SCCA PDX events twice or three times a year; At least for Norcal and Socal NASA regions, they have 10-12 events per year. Way more opportunity for track time in their HPDE sessions.
I'd also agree with Doc K; of NASA racers, high percentage wnet through HPDE as a way to get involved. Many HPDE folks have no interest in racing.

[red986s]

Some of the guys I’ve talked to said they PDX/HPDE because of the high cost of entry to club racing. These same folks are doing the track day in their $50k Porsche 911 or BMW or S2000 or Z06 Corvette. Wearing a race suit that cost thousands of dollars and running R compound tires, big brakes – upgrades galore to the car….. When I tell them they could have more fun w2w in a Civic – I get a funny look. When I try to explain the way in (i.e. selling the expensive street car and getting a DD beater to afford to go racing), I get the same funny look. If they really wanted to go w2w racing – they could make it happen

I'm an example of that. It was easy for me, I WANTED to race and knew what I had to do. It was tough sell my toys I had really worked hard for and wanted since I was a kid. Once folks realize they can't afford to convert their high end sports car to a racer we loose them. How do we change their minds?

[Knestis]

... Once folks realize they can't afford to convert their high end sports car to a racer we loose them. How do we change their minds?

In a lot of cases - probably most - we can't. And if we position the club strategically assuming we HAVE to accomplish that, we compromise what positive core competencies we do have.

K

[farrout]

For the South East Division, TT Level 3 and Level 4 is simply a continuation of the SOLO I program that we have held since the 80’s. In the SOLO I program we had track events and Hill Climbs which folded in to a SOLO I Championship Series. Now we have been transitioned to Club Racing Time Trials. The Level 3 and Level 4 Championship program continues to be strong with 8-10 events per year.

The Flat Track (Level 3) events are run with cars grouped in pods of the same relative lap times. Numbers of cars in a pod is dependent on the length of the track. They run 15 minute sessions with passing on the straights with a point-by. Most TT events are full stand-alone weekends with drivers getting more than 2 hours of track time for their $250 entry fee. PDXs are frequently run in groups on the same weekend – same price, same track time. On a $/Minute basis, TT is much better than any of the Road Races, Test Days, or HPDEs being run by other entities.

We are finding that the TT drivers generally do not want to drive a long distance for a one day Track event with 3 sessions which is what you find when combined with a Road Race weekend. This is particularly true when there are other options for track time.

We have reviewed the TTAC proposal on open passing in Level 3. The almost unanimous response from our drivers to the TTAC has been to NOT allow open passing.


By way of progression, I ran HPDEs at Summit Point, Watkins Glen, VIR and Road Atlanta for 5 years in my daily driver, a 1993 RX7. Took me one HPDE to install a rollbar and harnesses since I saw some cars roll and I was capable of hitting 155 on some tracks. When I lunched an engine one weekend, it convinced me to get a trailer. Then it was a move to Alabama and the SOLO scene. A year of that and my Miata became a CSP Solo I car used for both SOLO and SOLO I. Couple years of that and it was time for Road Race School and a DSR. Now it is a balance of Time Trials and Regional Racing. The reason for this progression was mostly due to the friends that I met in SCCA. That camaraderie is the strength of the SCCA.