ITB Sentra - WTF?

[erlrich]

We SHOULD debate this. What times did Serra win with? Alex? Ya know Ruck ran in the 41's this year right? How do you explain that? Do you think that if Stretch built a car now, and developd it, he wouldn't be any faster?

Tracks change, tires get better, people develop. Look at how much faster Moser has gone in just the last 2 years under intense pressure. NOBODY thought there was anything left in that car - but guess what? It NEVER STOPS.

Andy, you're probably right; given your background & experience your opinion is certainly worth about 1k times what mine is. I can only go by what I've seen for myself. My belief is Bob had already figured out how to get everything he could out of that car when he was winning with it. He had one of the best builders in the country doing his engines; and still he was blowing up engines that are generally thought of as pretty indestructible. He had the best suspension (Ohlins shocks IIRC), was running a custom header back before they were the norm, had spherical bearings everywhere, and the budget to make it all work. I doubt you'll ever see another 240SX as fast as his was. I would love for someone to prove me wrong, but until that happens I'm sticking with my opinion.

BTW - you're a pretty savy guy, and from what I hear a pretty ok driver (), why do you run a Miata in ITA and not a 240SX or Intega?

[Andy Bettencourt]

BTW - you're a pretty savy guy, and from what I hear a pretty ok driver (), why do you run a Miata in ITA and not a 240SX or Intega?

Those up here know I have a 240SX coupe 'thing'. Always wanted one. I have seen the dyno sheets on built motors with a Wolf ECU and 'Stretch' header, and the power is class-leading. People who have driven them and SM's tell me they are the best handling cars they have ever driven (with spherical suspension).

When I sold my ITS RX-7, I built an SM for business reasons. Turned it into an ITA car for business reasons. I didn't go with the 240 because nobody could keep them together, not because they can't be fast. Teg? FWD sucks.

If I could buld and own any IT cars in class they would be:

ITR: E46 325 Coupe
ITS: 240Z
ITA: 240SX Coupe
ITB: Corolla GTS
ITC: Datsun 510

[Matt93SE]

Those up here know I have a 240SX coupe 'thing'. Always wanted one. I have seen the dyno sheets on built motors with a Wolf ECU and 'Stretch' header, and the power is class-leading. People who have driven them and SM's tell me they are the best handling cars they have ever driven (with spherical suspension).

When I sold my ITS RX-7, I built an SM for business reasons. Turned it into an ITA car for business reasons. I didn't go with the 240 because nobody could keep them together, not because they can't be fast. Teg? FWD sucks.

If I could buld and own any IT cars in class they would be:

ITR: E46 325 Coupe
ITS: 240Z
ITA: 240SX Coupe
ITB: Corolla GTS
ITC: Datsun 510

what's the common problem with reliability? I have a 4-valve engine so life's a bit different, but it's got 110k miles on it, and it's been a dedicated DE/race car since ~95k or so. Stock internals of course..

[lateapex911]

I chatted with Stretch (Briefly!) on the podium at the ARRC after his ITA loss to Ruck, and he was shaking his head, not pleased. He said: "Man if I thought the ITA race was going to be this hard I would have done the brakes and tuned the car....shit, I thought the SM race was going to be the tough one!"
(That was the year he WALKED the field in SM, only to later find issues with the head, that, IIRC, the builder took blame for.)

At the time, I think Bob was doing some WC races, and decided to do the ARRC ITA race at the last minute. Patullo was there, IIRC, and chated with him a bit about that.
Point being, he didn't always bring his A game.

[Andy Bettencourt]

what's the common problem with reliability? I have a 4-valve engine so life's a bit different, but it's got 110k miles on it, and it's been a dedicated DE/race car since ~95k or so. Stock internals of course..

Your motor is TOTALLY different.

[Chip42]

back to the sentra:

The chassis is a known quantity, thanks to the SE-R there's reasonable parts availability in the aftermarket, and the chassis stuff transfers. the car is stupid light, and they sold them by the boatload, especially here in central FL, so there's a ton of salvage parts to be had and rollers are dirt cheap. the motor makes good power, has a variable timing intake cam, and the drivetrain is very simple and that works well in this situation. shifter is pretty good, and very good with new OEM bushings. like most (all?) nissans, most of the non critical gaskets are RTV by design, which makes for a smaller spares inventory. most of the hard parts carried over into the B14 chassis too, further aiding parts support. the hall effect distributor in the B13 is less prone to failure than the optical setup in the B14, and the B13 has a better rear suspension.

downsides: the rod cap likes to fall off of the #1 cylinder. unfortunately, the hole the loose rod creates on the exhaust side of the motor is obscured by the giant cast alternator / AC bracket. I think we found 4 or 5 of these in the yard before coming upon a "good" bottom end for my old beater, which was out of commission for the same reason. better hardware and checking the torque as maintenance should make this a non issue in service, but it does play havoc on the salvage spare blocks. drum brakes on the rear.

Also the GA16DE is a 16 valve motor, so under the current rules it would be 2380 lbs. But I don't think the 30% "expected" gains are too far out of line for this motor, and I don't want to start a pissing match about the 30% rule.

all told, I think it'd be a good car with minimal effort, and a very good car with development. it'll never be sexy, but neither will a lot of the beaters in ITB.

the Single cam 240sx is a fast, good handling car, but you never know if the race will be longer than the fuse on the motor. I believe that this too could be overcome but I think that those interested in doing so have all moved on.

I generally agree on buy before build, except where I get why you wouldn't (we built 2 IT MR2s from scratch, an ITB del sol, ITS 99 civic Si, and 90 Civic Si for FP).

[Knestis]

>> Dave - I don't speak Honda; if I were going to go with a known quantity I would take the Golf.

The dark side is less dark by the glow of the Check Engine light.

Kidding aside, I think the Nissan would be a very good ITB car.

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

Back on Topic for me too:

So Earl, the only way this car will be competitive is if it can out-perform it's process power and handle better than everthing in a straight line. I don't see how you can't draw a direct parallel between this car and the Sentra SE-R / NX2000. That car, with ~155whp, is about 75lbs 'light' by the numbers.

I would build it if you were 100% confident that 125whp was possible (5% over the 'expected' 30%). THAT is a butt-load for an ITB car, especially at 2380lbs of process weight.

My presonal recipe for a great IT car is one that HANDLES better than anything else, then try and make process power. Our S2000 is an example of this. I would build a Boxster too. In ITB, I would build a Honda with a DW front if I wasn't such a fanboi of the Corolla GTS (knowing it woudn't be competitive because it can't make process power).

Actually, the best car for me in ITB would be the 924. But only a few guys in the country who have done it so it's an adventure. Honda or VW in ITB is the easy button.