Conversion to double wishbone. Hear me out.

[cyanide]

So I have a daily driver that is going to be converted for racing full time. I live in India and the car is a Honda City '00 model. Pretty similar to the EG Civics. The car came with MacPherson struts all round and incredibly soft suspension mainly for a good ride.

I wanted to convert the rear to double wishbone. Doing up the front will be a huge challenge because it would intrude into the engine bay. No so with the rear.

I know cars with MacPherson struts can be made to handle. However, NONE of the mainstream strut manufacturers have anything available for my car. Either the installed shock height is different, or the mounting points are not suitable or the incorrect size. We have some some options, but they are mostly designed for look rather than function. Not sure if manufacturers like GAB or Hotbits will be used by any of you guys here.

Do you guys think it would be better to convert the rear to a double wishbone setup. After conversion, I'd be able to choose the rear suspension from a huge array of options, a lot of it which would be developed with racing in mind.

I do not believe that the fabrication would be very difficult. I understand what is required and how the problems can be tackled.

Hit me with your honest opinions. Call me an idiot if you feel so, but please follow up with constructive criticism too. Thank you all.

[mossaidis]

Hi,

I wonder if it would cheaper to buy a DW car or an already built race car...

Anyways, to answer your questions, your '00 Honda City looks like and sounds like an EK more than an EG:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_C...2.80.932002.29

This site is geared for improvedtouring and super rules, rules where neither of which allow for entire suspension swaps. You might find more information in that vein on a GT forum or sites focused on the EK's. For the latter, I imagine you find lots of "Hunda" punks saying you can or can't giving some mixed advice or none at all. Preferably, I would try to find folks with experience in swapping entire suspension, so again... I would go to an SCCA GT/SP, NASA USRRC forums.

Coming at this blindly, i recommend seeing if you can use (USDM references) the 88-91 CRX rear DW suspension assembly, multi-link from a 04-08 TSX or better yet multi-link from 94-01 Integra Type-R. Of course, your area of the world might have different names for those model,s i.e. the 04-08 Acura TSX is a honda accord in europe. Here is some information on the Type-R... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Type_R

For both setups would require additional room than your traditional trailing arm setup, i.e. you need to cut and build new pick points, etc as you already know.

If you stay with the trailing arms, I *believe* many EK parts will fit your stock rear assembly. For instance, sphericals on the pivot joint, lower control arm and tow adjustment link. For the money and time, modifying stock assembly is obviously EASIER!

Ciao fo now and good luck!

[cyanide]

Thank you for the response.

It is pretty similar to the EG, not the EK as Wikipedia says. It's honestly a crapshoot of parts everywhere; Honda scavenged through parts bins for various years to come up with this.

As per our rules, we cannot use a chassis that hasn't been homologated by the Automotive Regulatory body here. I'll probably be able to get away with modifying the chassis to use the new suspension. Same rules with the engine block, head and tranny casing. Everything else, including the block, head and tranny internals are free, and the rules ask for a minimum weight to be a multiple of the engine displacement. I believe it is:
Displacement (cc)/1.7 = Minimum weight (kg)

We do not have any of the models you've listed (Integra, TSX or a CRX), so everything will have to be shipped from the US or Japan. Anyways, I'm fine with that because we have to do that with almost every engine part right down to the smallest seals (local stuff is just crap).

I will look into the CRX suspension assembly. I believe that might be a pretty close match.

Regardless, I will post more information, pictures and various measurements. Perhaps some of you might've worked with something similar and might be able to help.

Again, thank you for your reply!

[mossaidis]

here's reasoning for EG vs EK. EK's have strut front suspensions as does your City, EG's have DW fronts. Also, the model line years for the City match perfectly to the EK, 96-. The City has a similar grill fron to the EK Civic.

Correction on previous post, the Type R has a DW rear, not multilink.

i am not sure suspension would fit better, the CRX or TypeR DW. Good luck!

Ps. Also try searching on www.honda-tech.com and www.d-series.org

[Chip42]

just a note, the EJ/K/M is almost identical to the EG/H chassis-wise. it's a DW front and the same type of trailing arm / SLA hybrid rear that dates back to the EF civic/CRX and DA teg (2nd gen).

[cyanide]

Thanks!

@mossadis: I'm a regular on D-Series, but I won't be finding much info about this there. HT just keeps going downhill; no offence intended if you're an active member there.

Thank you for the info about the EG and EK Civic. Most of the interiors and mounts are similar to the EG. We've got a car that has a mixture of parts from multiple generations of the Civic. The tranny, for instance, is cable type and from an 89 Civic Si. In a car that was manufactured in 2000.

[Xian]

just a note, the EJ/K/M is almost identical to the EG/H chassis-wise. it's a DW front and the same type of trailing arm / SLA hybrid rear that dates back to the EF civic/CRX and DA teg (2nd gen).

Bingo. The EK's were very, very similar to the EG's (which are almost the same as the DC Integra's). Whatever bastard child of an abortion that came after the EK's was the one with struts up front. Want to say it started around 01 or so? May be able to scavange something off of one of them that would work?

My $0.02 for a strut front would be to spring the hell out of after getting it to the ride height and camber I wanted. Yes, yes, yes... DW is "better" but re-engineering a front end (of a FWD car) to incorporate an upper control arm is going to be way the hell more hassle than it's worth. Seriously. Take the time/money you were going to spend on re-inventing the wheel and put it into developing what you have. Maybe check with Koni to see if they have a "generic" strut insert that will work with your existing shock tubes?

Christian

[mossaidis]

We've got a car that has a mixture of parts from multiple generations of the Civic. The tranny, for instance, is cable type and from an 89 Civic Si. In a car that was manufactured in 2000.

Wow... that's amazing. I now understand...

Bingo. The EK's were very, very similar to the EG's (which are almost the same as the DC Integra's). Whatever bastard child of an abortion that came after the EK's was the one with struts up front. Want to say it started around 01 or so? May be able to scavange something off of one of them that would work?

My $0.02 for a strut front would be to spring the hell out of after getting it to the ride height and camber I wanted. Yes, yes, yes... DW is "better" but re-engineering a front end (of a FWD car) to incorporate an upper control arm is going to be way the hell more hassle than it's worth. Seriously. Take the time/money you were going to spend on re-inventing the wheel and put it into developing what you have. Maybe check with Koni to see if they have a "generic" strut insert that will work with your existing shock tubes? Christian

I stand corrected, thank you Christian and Chip. struts started with the 01- Civics. I remember the USDM 02 Si being a big suspension let down.

@cyanide, I agree with Christian. Tweak that strut suspension, there should plenty of support in the US as long as you find the US equivalent performance part for your setup. Some links that might help...

http://www.ground-control-store.com/
http://www.kingmotorsports.com/
http://www.koni.com/21.html

[cyanide]

Just to update you guys on the matter.

We ended up contacting most of the big suspension companies to see what could be adapted to our car without any modifications.

Turns out there's no strut options for our cars at all. I've delayed the conversion for now since I'm going to try Koni struts with some adaptations. Will post pics when I get to it.

[cyanide]

Just to post an update.

I've decided that I will stick to the strut setup. Although I would be able to "engineer" the rear suspension to be DW, a small hit from the back and I'd be back to square one, and with a tweaked chassis that might not handle true after that.

I am looking for 2 busted Koni struts (1 x front, 1 x rear). The purpose of this is twofold. One, that I can mock these up on my car and make a list of all the modifications required to adapt them to this Honda City.

I'm also posting an ad in the WTB section, so if any of you can help me with that, please go ahead and do. I have many successful vouches on various other forums. More info there!

Cheers!

[Xian]

Best of luck with your new endeavor. What you're going to attempt to piece together certainly can be done with deep enough pockets (for both hardware and software) but I'm highly doubtful that you'll be able to put it to good effect in a much more... errr... "grassroots" manner.

Christian, will note that the above was my third attempt at posting something nice and upbeat.

[jumbojimbo]

I'm not real clear on how a pair of busted struts are going to help with testing of the predictive system.

On the other hand I can see how a small hit in the rear could get your chassis tweaked.

[cyanide]

Not the actual testing on a track.

I need to design various mounts for the shocks.