Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 37

Thread: GMs in IT

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Posts
    3,682

    Post GMs in IT

    With the Mustang discussion last week I noticed that we don't have much GM participation in IT. However, I think there are a couple of places where the General can come out and play.

    The 1993, 1994, 1995 4th Generation Camaro has an engine option that would fit well into ITS, the 3.4L 90 degree V6. Stock the motor is rated at 160hp and 200 ft-lbs of twist. Looks like it'd drop into ITS at around 2580 lbs before any adders for torque, so maybe a mid-2600 spec weight.

    Another GM platform that Mr. Young pointed out is the C4 Corvette circa 1984. 205 hp, 290 tq, it should fit into ITR with no problem. Great motor, good brakes, reasonably light chassis that will probably need ballast at a spec weight of around 3100-3200 lbs.

    I think I'll write a letter and ask to have both of these cars classed.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Silicon Valley, CA
    Posts
    1,381

    Default

    While on the ITAC I lobbied the CRB for a new faster IT class which would fit the M3 and the C4 Corvettes. Unfortunately only the '84 is likely to fit decently into ITR and that's not a very desireable package compared to the later cars.
    Josh Sirota
    ITR '99 BMW Z3 Coupe

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Posts
    3,682

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshS View Post
    While on the ITAC I lobbied the CRB for a new faster IT class which would fit the M3 and the C4 Corvettes. Unfortunately only the '84 is likely to fit decently into ITR and that's not a very desireable package compared to the later cars.
    The 1984 C4 fits into ITR. While maybe not as desirable as later model C4s, it'd be possible to class it as is in ITR. Over 51000 1984 examples were built so there is plenty of race car fodder out there for cheap prices. Probably even get a leather jacket and gold chain to go with it.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Buffalo, New York
    Posts
    2,942

    Default

    No love for Fieros, Citations or Chevettes?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Posts
    3,682

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by joeg View Post
    No love for Fieros, Citations or Chevettes?
    Au Contraire, I love Fieros. I still think a full on 100% Megasquirted built to the max Fiero could do some damage in ITA. Still haven't seen a 100% build yet, or close to it.

    Those other two, no, no love there despite the common DNA with the Fiero.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Trussville, Alabama, USA
    Posts
    1,085

    Default

    Look at the intake manifold/ports on the Fiero and you might change your mind. cB
    Chuck Baader
    White EP BMW M-Techniq
    I may grow older, but I refuse to grow up!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    CT/NY/NJ
    Posts
    1,157

    Default

    I like the ideas. Good thinking.

    3.4 needs a torque adder? What else does? Where is the line drawn?
    Chris Rallo "the kid"
    -- "wrenching and racing" -- "will race for food!" -- "Onward and Upward"

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Decatur , GA, USA
    Posts
    183

    Default

    "Torque adder"? Is that still around? I'll say it again. Horsepower counts, torque doesn't. "Torque monster" is noting but a synonym for "revless wonder". I wonder why things like torque adders are still even discussed, much less used. Color me disappointed.
    Tom Lyttle
    Decatur, GA
    IT7 Mazda - 2006, 2008 SARRC Champion
    ITS Nissan 200SX - finally running correctly
    FP Ford Capri - waiting for a comp adjustment
    GT3 Dodge Daytona - what was I thinking?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Silicon Valley, CA
    Posts
    1,381

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TomL View Post
    "Torque adder"? Is that still around? I'll say it again. Horsepower counts, torque doesn't. "Torque monster" is noting but a synonym for "revless wonder". I wonder why things like torque adders are still even discussed, much less used. Color me disappointed.
    Tom, I agree, but here's why it is part of the Process:

    What really matters is not only peak HP, but also, the breadth of the peak part of the HP curve. Until we are all using CVT transmissions, we'll be spending some full-throttle time away from the HP peak. We need something to approximate how quickly HP falls off on either side of the peak to account for this. Neither displacement nor peak torque are exactly related to this, but on average are decent indicators of this breadth and are easily available to the ITAC.
    Josh Sirota
    ITR '99 BMW Z3 Coupe

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    532

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by chuck baader View Post
    Look at the intake manifold/ports on the Fiero and you might change your mind. cB
    Put one on the track and you might change it back. I've posted this story on these pages before, but what the Hell...

    In 2004 I took a nearly stock (I've owned it since new, so I know what's been monkeyed with and what hasn't) '88 Fiero GT to Hallett and did a few track days. The car had the muffler removed (converter still installed), was lowered an inch or two by chopping the stock springs, and had orange Koni street shocks front and rear. We mounted some used Hoosier SM's on 7" Kosei K1's, decambered it front & rear and went at it. We ended up 3.5 seconds off the ITA lap record, held at that time by Bob Stretch in the Nissan 240S. This was with nothing done to the engine - and I do mean nothing whatsoever; no chip, no headers, no tuning of any sort. Oh, yes... about the weight... we were 300 pounds (three hundred - it's not a typo) over current ITA minimum for the car. And remember, we're talking about a 2900+ lb car on used 205/50 15's!

    I'm not saying it's an overdog in ITA, but I sure wouldn't dismiss it as an also-ran; in full prep and the right hands, the car is a potential front runner IMO.
    Gary Learned
    MiDiv
    Volvo 142E
    http://www.youtube.com/user/denrael

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Decatur , GA, USA
    Posts
    183

    Default

    Josh - I realize that high torque has sometimes been taken as an indicator of wide torque band. For a specific engine, I don't doubt that is the case. However, I have serious doubts that this is true across the huge variety of engines that are found in IT. Admittedly, I haven't seen a huge number of dyno sheets to confirm my impression, but I'll take that as true until I see otherwise.

    Have you all done a systematic survey of all the data you have to demonstrate that peak torque is a reliable indicator of power band width? Is so, could I see it? I've been thinking about writing a paper on the whole torque vs. HP question, and would like to see what anyone else has discovered. Alternatively, could I get access to a selection of the dyno graphs the ITAC has so I could do my own analysis? This is a topic which has bothered me for years, and I'd like to see a definitive resolution.

    Thanks
    Tom Lyttle
    Decatur, GA
    IT7 Mazda - 2006, 2008 SARRC Champion
    ITS Nissan 200SX - finally running correctly
    FP Ford Capri - waiting for a comp adjustment
    GT3 Dodge Daytona - what was I thinking?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Posts
    3,682

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CRallo View Post
    3.4 needs a torque adder? What else does? Where is the line drawn?

    Apparently it is a "We know it when we see it" thing. Empirically it is a "Domestic Penalty" - TR8 (ITS, maybe it has one, domestic motor), Mustang V8 in ITR (does have one), Camaro V8 in ITR (has one), Corvette (not classed but would probably have a torque adder in ITR) - all domestic powered cars with torque adders.

    RX7s have no torque to speak of, but at 8000 RPM that twisting force makes a lot of horsepower, and horsepower tells us how much work we can do with the motor. There are many torqueless motors that perform just fine - Miatas, GSR, etc. because they produce good horsepower in the framework of the class they race. Their horsepower peaks are broad enough to get the job done.

    Naturally I'd take a broader horsepower curver over a narrower horsepower curve as the area under the horsepower curve that is accessible with the gearbox is all that makes any difference. But in looking at a lot of dyno plots I'm not entirely convinced that 2V large displacement domestic engines are producing horsepower curves that are appreciably wider than small displacement imports. Especially when most of the import motors have four valve heads which provide for impressive breathing capability.

    But besides all of that, those two GM cars should be in IT. Shame about the Camaro as it doesn't have disc brakes in the rear. Typically GM does ok on brakes but they left drums on the car until it got the more powerful 3.8L V6.
    Last edited by Ron Earp; 10-03-2011 at 10:04 PM.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Tijeras, NM
    Posts
    579

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshS View Post
    Tom, I agree, but here's why it is part of the Process:

    What really matters is not only peak HP, but also, the breadth of the peak part of the HP curve. Until we are all using CVT transmissions, we'll be spending some full-throttle time away from the HP peak. We need something to approximate how quickly HP falls off on either side of the peak to account for this. Neither displacement nor peak torque are exactly related to this, but on average are decent indicators of this breadth and are easily available to the ITAC.
    You have to admit that is is completely bogus to have an adder for torque, but not account for the transmission. We have cars getting deductions for low torque that also have ridiculously good ratios in 6-speed boxes.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,717

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Earp View Post
    Apparently it is a "We know it when we see it" thing. Empirically it is a "Domestic Penalty" - TR8 (ITS, maybe it has one, domestic motor), Mustang V8 in ITR (does have one), Camaro V8 in ITR (has one), Corvette (not classed but would probably have a torque adder in ITR) - all domestic powered cars with torque adders.

    RX7s have no torque to speak of, but at 8000 RPM that twisting force makes a lot of horsepower, and horsepower tells us how much work we can do with the motor. There are many torqueless motors that perform just fine - Miatas, GSR, etc. because they produce good horsepower in the framework of the class they race. Their horsepower peaks are broad enough to get the job done.

    Naturally I'd take a broader horsepower curver over a narrower horsepower curve as the area under the horsepower curve that is accessible with the gearbox is all that makes any difference. But in looking at a lot of dyno plots I'm not entirely convinced that 2V large displacement domestic engines are producing horsepower curves that are appreciably wider than small displacement imports. Especially when most of the import motors have four valve heads which provide for impressive breathing capability.

    But besides all of that, those two GM cars should be in IT. Shame about the Camaro as it doesn't have disc brakes in the rear. Typically GM does ok on brakes but they left drums on the car until it got the more powerful 3.8L V6.
    First I've heard of a "Domestic" penalty... My car's made in Greer South Carolina, this might explain a bunch.
    STU BMW Z3 2.5liter

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1

    Default

    Hey thanks for sharing such an good stuff. Good work. Keep it up.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Fredericksburg, VA
    Posts
    1,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Earp View Post
    With the Mustang discussion last week I noticed that we don't have much GM participation in IT. However, I think there are a couple of places where the General can come out and play.

    The 1993, 1994, 1995 4th Generation Camaro has an engine option that would fit well into ITS, the 3.4L 90 degree V6. Stock the motor is rated at 160hp and 200 ft-lbs of twist. Looks like it'd drop into ITS at around 2580 lbs before any adders for torque, so maybe a mid-2600 spec weight.
    The only problem with that (well, not the only, but the major problem) is the same problem its younger cousin has in ITR, but worse; the weight. All the 4th gen cars all weigh about the same - ~3300 lbs. Add a cage and a driver, and you'll need to drop almost 1000 lbs to get to the ITS weight.

    I'm pretty sure the ITAC & CRB don't agree (we should find out this month), but I think those cars should be classed in the lower class at a heavier weight, i.e. the 3.8 should be in ITS at ~3200 lbs and the 3.4 should be in ITA at the same weight. Even then I think they would both be mid-pack cars.
    Earl R.
    240SX
    ITA/ST5

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Posts
    3,682

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by erlrich View Post
    The only problem with that (well, not the only, but the major problem) is the same problem its younger cousin has in ITR, but worse; the weight. All the 4th gen cars all weigh about the same - ~3300 lbs. Add a cage and a driver, and you'll need to drop almost 1000 lbs to get to the ITS weight.

    I'm pretty sure the ITAC & CRB don't agree (we should find out this month), but I think those cars should be classed in the lower class at a heavier weight, i.e. the 3.8 should be in ITS at ~3200 lbs and the 3.4 should be in ITA at the same weight. Even then I think they would both be mid-pack cars.
    I'm not a 4th generation Camaro guru and I'm assuming your not quoting marketing/magazine/web curb weights, but the Mustang hasn't played out as badly as predicted. With the stang it is more a question of dropping few hundreds of pounds, not many hundreds of pounds. Any chance of a real-world V6 T5 Camaro in street trim coming in at 3100-3200 lbs with a light driver sitting in the seat?

    I haven't been asked but I don't think a 3.8L V6 Camaro in ITS at 3XXX lbs would be that attractive. It'd have the juice though. I'm not much up on ITA, but I wouldn't fancy my chances with a 3XXX lbs weight in ITA either. I think I'd rather race a 3.4L V6 Camaro a couple of hundred pounds over spec weight in ITS than race it in ITA at its curb weight. But, there again, I don't have much Camaro experience. Is the CRB/ITAC considering re-classing the Camaro?

    I do like the Camaro classed in ITR though at around 2800 lbs. That weight seems obtainable, the chassis has some good features, and the motor should be able to make power needed for the class. Bummer that the 3.4L ITS version has rear drum brakes - I swore those off when I sold the Z.
    Last edited by Ron Earp; 10-05-2011 at 04:00 PM.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Fredericksburg, VA
    Posts
    1,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Earp View Post
    I'm not a 4th generation Camaro guru and I'm assuming your not quoting marketing/magazine/web curb weights, but the Mustang hasn't played out as badly as predicted. With the stang it is more a question of dropping few hundreds of pounds, not many hundreds of pounds. Any chance of a real-world V6 T5 Camaro in street trim coming in at 3100-3200 lbs with a light driver sitting in the seat?

    I haven't been asked but I don't think a 3.8L V6 Camaro in ITS at 3XXX lbs would be that attractive. It'd have the juice though. I'm not much up on ITA, but I wouldn't fancy my chances with a 3XXX lbs weight in ITA either. I think I'd rather race a 3.4L V6 Camaro a couple of hundred pounds over spec weight in ITS than race it in ITA at its curb weight. But, there again, I don't have much Camaro experience. Is the CRB/ITAC considering re-classing the Camaro?

    I do like the Camaro classed in ITR though at around 2800 lbs. That weight seems obtainable, the chassis has some good features, and the motor should be able to make power needed for the class. Bummer that the 3.4L ITS version has rear drum brakes - I swore those off when I sold the Z.
    Ron - not a guru either, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn...err, scratch that - I did take my car ('02, V6, T5) across the scales at Summit a couple of years ago just to see what I would have to lose to get to ITR weight. With my 250 lb backside in the seat, and about 1/4 tank of gas (~4 gals) it came in at 3535 lbs. That was in full street trim - spare tire, jack, full interior, etc.

    The V6 currently runs in SSB at 3300 lbs, and the V8 version is classed at 3530 lbs in both AS and T2. To the best of my knowledge, other than things you can change in IT trim (springs, sway bars), the suspension, diff, and brakes are identical on both V6 and V8 versions. I know 3300 lbs sounds heavy to us in IT-land, where 2600 lb cars are considered pigs, but I think that car will work at the higher weight. That said, I really don't think this will be a great car in either class; I think Andy summed it up well...something like "you can put lipstick on a pig, but in the end it's still a pig".

    And yeah, I put in a request to have the V6 Camaros & Firebirds moved to ITS months ago; I just received an email that the ITAC & CRB have reviewed the request, and the decision should be in the next FT.
    Earl R.
    240SX
    ITA/ST5

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Posts
    3,682

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by erlrich View Post
    I know 3300 lbs sounds heavy to us in IT-land, where 2600 lb cars are considered pigs, but I think that car will work at the higher weight. That said, I really don't think this will be a great car in either class; I think Andy summed it up well...something like "you can put lipstick on a pig, but in the end it's still a pig".
    Time to get some pigs in IT. What are they making these Camaros out of, Tungsten?

    I bet the car can make ITR weight with some serious work. Dick got his RX7 to make ITA weight, against all the naysayers, and it was apparently a lot of work. I can get Dercole's ITR stang to minimum weight and I think he's convinced of that too.

    I can't get my ITS stang down to weight, but I think I can get close enough to weight that it'll be a threat in ITS, at the expense of many man hours of work, but it might just be possible. The Camaro could be a similar situation in ITR.

    So in ITS trim the 3.8:

    200x1.25x12.9 = 3225 (no "torque adder" applied, does it get one?). Dang ol. No doubt the 3.8L can make some power, but that is some serious weight to haul around. About 600 lbs heavier than the RX7, more than 700 lbs heavier than the Z. I've always liked those GM 3.8L engines. Powerful workhorses that didn't complain much. Man ol man, talk about parts aplenty.

    In ITR trim it is considerably lighter, 2815 lbs. Let's say it can't make 2815 lbs and has to race at 2950 , still seems like a good package for ITR. I'd be surprised if they moved it to S, but you never know. S or R, I'd love to see some of them on track. High time to move away from the Mazda Car Club of America.

    Earl, how user friendly are they? I haven't poked around them much, but the ones I have looked at seem like a definite "front mid-engine" design. The motor seems to live under the dash between the two occupants. Definitely a slick exterior. And, from the times I spent in the back seat of the 3rd gen cars in the 80s I know there isn't a lot of room there. The Mustang seems like a more usable package although maybe at the expense of handling.
    Last edited by Ron Earp; 10-05-2011 at 09:16 PM.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Northeast
    Posts
    7,031

    Default

    Letter ID Number: #6637
    Title: 1984 C4 Corvette Classification
    Class: ITR
    Request:
    I would like to request the classification of the 1984 C4 Corvette. Specs are below needed to classify the car per the ITCS:

    1984 Chevrolet Corvette
    [email protected] / 290 [email protected]
    Curb weight 3200lbs
    V-8 OHV
    Bore and Stroke: 101.6mm x 88.4mm
    Intake valve: 1.94”
    Exhaust Valve: 1.50”
    Compression Ratio: 9.0:1
    Wheelbase: 96.2”
    Wheel sizes: Base: 16”x8.5” Z51 package: 16”x8.5”F, 16”x9.5”R
    Transmission ratios: 4 speed, 2.88, 1.91, 1.33, 1.00
    Brake size: 292.1mm F&R (11.5”)
    Independent front and rear suspension with transverse leaf springs.

    Using the classification process, I would see it playing out like this:
    205 x 1.25 x 11.25 = 2882.8 rounded to 2885lbs.

    If you care to research these cars, you will find out that they share the ‘cross-fire’ injection with the 1983 C3 L83 cars. Horrible for revs but decent torque. Pre tuned-port-injection. Single year on a single spec line.

    We have a build pending the weighting of the car. Thanks.
    Andy Bettencourt
    New England Region 188967

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •