September 2011 Fastrack

[lateapex911]

"Alternate water pump, alternator, power steering, and crankshaft pulleys of any diameter or material may be used."

...with no further restrictions. Thus, we invoke the Roffe Corollary. If you want to invoke the "prohibited function" clause that's easy: what's the intended function of alternate pulleys? To allow accessories to turn slower. Does a bearing-infused power steering pulley allow the power steering pump to turn slower? Yes it does.

GA

Well, you're interpreting intent.


The allowance states nothing along those line. Altering diameter could increase speeds as well.

It allows any material, not any materialS, so it COULD be argued that a bearing design would be illegal if it used more than one material.

We need a devils advocate smiley.

[Knestis]

It strikes me that we could head off the power steering disable workaround by changing "No permitted component/modification shall additionally perform a prohibited function" to reflect the IIDSYCYC assumption - "No permitted component/modification shall additionally perform a function not otherwise specifically allowed by these rules."

We are not specifically PROHIBITED from compromising the functionality of the PS system, so a pulley design can do so. This would close that loophole - and others, like the engine mount idea that Andy shared.

K

[Greg Amy]

Well, you're interpreting intent.

No, I'm not. I'm simply telling you what the rule says. It's the responsibility of the person(s) writing the rules to worry about the intent and convey those limitations correctly.

Jeff's pulley with the bearing in the center meets all allowances and limitations of the rule*. If that's not what was intended then shame on the rulesmakers...so don't wave your finger at me if you assumed something that wasn't there....

GA

[tderonne]

The power steering rule would be a tricky one. The Miata rule doesn't work. Miatas came with or without power steering. The rule as written for IT could open it up to aftermarket racing racks, no thanks.

I see two cases that would need to be covered:

The first, where an alternate OEM rack is available, but never came on the exact model classed. Like the Escort GT. All Escort GT's (and LXE's) came with power steering. The base Escort had power steering as an option. The base manual rack will swap right in.

The second, where there isn't an easily swapped in OEM rack. Don't know an exact car, but easy to think about. There is no manual rack to swap in. Looping the hoses would suit here. Hate to loop the hoses for case 1 though, when a proper rack is available.

Maybe the best way to handle it is on a spec line basis? No rules creep. No open door for the Widget SUX to gain 1500 HP. But a way to deal with getting rid of the system is cases where it's asked for?

[Hoof Hearted]

So, sure, find a way toss in that Golf 2.0L turbo engine into your 944, and go have fun playing in STU...

GA

2.0L GTI turbo motor in my 1984 Scirocco... ...hmmmmm, interesting.

[Ron Earp]

but I could not think of a Ford engine that could be installed in the Miata chassis that would make it a significantly better competitor than what it can be now.

Alright, let me try. What years from Ford can I use?

Hell, I think you should use whatever motor you like and forget the "from the same manufacturer" rule, but I'm sure I'm a minority.

[JeffYoung]

You just want to put a real engine - Mopar -- in the Stripperstang. Admit it!

Alright, let me try. What years from Ford can I use?

Hell, I think you should use whatever motor you like and forget the "from the same manufacturer" rule, but I'm sure I'm a minority.

[Ron Earp]

You just want to put a real engine - Mopar -- in the Stripperstang. Admit it!

No Slopars in the Rustang.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Ok, Andy...let's simplify.

"Alternate stock appearing engine/transmission mounts of non metallic material may be used, but there can be no change to the engine’s fore, aft or vertical location. Engine mounts must attach to the engine and the chassis in their stock locations."

If you want to use carbon fiber...go head on. Chuck

Just doing what we need to to write a rule that is less prone to unintended outcomes.

This one is much closer.

[lateapex911]

Just doing what we need to to write a rule that is less prone to unintended outcomes.

This one is much closer.

Why non metallic? Do we really care? Lots of mounts already have metal in them, so this would effectively make certain stock ones verboten?

I don't see the "use the engine as a stressed member" fears that I hear is an issue behind closed doors (phone lines)
Hey, if they want to break the engine, by all means, have at it...

[mustanghammer]

Once convinced of that, I took the primary position of "think of the very best engine you can, one with the highest power-to-displacement, and put it into the very best chassis you can think of". My standard for the chassis was the Mazda Miata, and I tried to think of the very best "family" engine you could install into it, even using FoMoCo products as an extreme potential intorturation. Granted, I can't think of all possibilities ("crowd sourcing" will take care of that soon enough) but I could not think of a Ford engine that could be installed in the Miata chassis that would make it a significantly better competitor than what it can be now. GA

This reasoning seems to assume that a Ford engine will ever be as good as a Mazda engine so it would be "safe" to allow Ford-Mazda swaps because no one would every do that. That may very well be true but who in the SCCA is qulaified to predict the future?

The Porsche/VW relationship is interesting and I can see the logic behind why it was allowed based on corporate ownership, some shared plateforms and engines. But this does open the need for a rule that defines what a corporate family relationship is with respect to engine swaps.

One of the variables that will need to be addressed is what happens when a corporate relationship is ended? For example Ford used to own Jaguar and Volvo. It was a realtionship that is similar to the one that VW/Porsche has with shared engines, platforms, etc. But what about the fact that this relationship has ended? Would engine swaps only be allowed with chassis and engine combinations that existed when these three companies were together? What happens to swap allowances if VW sells off its interests to Porsche?

Another area of concern that can not be addressed by rule changes is Manufacturer involvement in the ST catagory. If the ST rule set further blurrs the lines between the various manufacturers how can we expect them to support us? Why would Mazda continue to offer me support for my RX7 when it has a Ford engine in it?

As I said I can see the logic but at this point I don't agree with the direction that this will take the ST catagory in.

[titanium]

With the Ford ownership of all the different brands from 1996-2006, you can come up with a whole lot of combinations.
Here are some I came up with:
STU:
Turbo Volvo 5 cylinder in a Miata.
STO:
Aston Martin Vanquish V8 in a Mustang.

[red986s]

Ferrari engine in a Fiat or Alfa!

[JeffYoung]

Lambo V-12 in a Dodge Shadow!

[Z3_GoCar]

You just want to put a real engine - Mopar -- in the Stripperstang. Admit it!

You know the proper motor to put in a Ford is a SB Chevy

[Z3_GoCar]

Why non metallic? Do we really care? Lots of mounts already have metal in them, so this would effectively make certain stock ones verboten?

I don't see the "use the engine as a stressed member" fears that I hear is an issue behind closed doors (phone lines)
Hey, if they want to break the engine, by all means, have at it...

I decided to go with Vorshlag motor and transmission mounts, they're all through bolt design with some nonmetal in compression. The motor mounts are solid nylon with the hardness of a bolling ball and the transmission mounts are shore 95a.

My tabled letter didn't deal with metal or nonmetal, just replace the oem mounts and not change the location, position, or orentation. They should be confined to the oe position. I submitted it not to be accepted exactly on at face value, but to kick start the discussion, and get something close to it.

From my letter #4636:
I am writing to request that allow aftermarket motor, transmission, or transaxle mounts to replace fragile oem mounts be allowed in Improved Touring. These replacement mounts are to be located in the orginal location and shall not alter the location, position, or orientation of the motor, transmission, or transaxle.

[Ron Earp]

With the Ford ownership of all the different brands from 1996-2006, you can come up with a whole lot of combinations.
Here are some I came up with:
STU:
Turbo Volvo 5 cylinder in a Miata.
STO:
Aston Martin Vanquish V8 in a Mustang.

And some of these were exactly where I was going once Greg let me know the year range. And there are engines within Ford itself that can be extremely potent. MM&FF covered a nice aluminum DOHC V8 swap into a Focus some years back....

Unlike IT this class is for "RACE CARS". Since they are RACE CARS, and the class has displacement/compression/cam/induction rules then it seems that it'd be great to allow one to put whatever engine that met the rules into the car without worrying about who made it.

[Matt93SE]

Since they are RACE CARS, and the class has displacement/compression/cam/induction rules then it seems that it'd be great to allow one to put whatever engine that met the rules into the car without worrying about who made it or what country they were sold in.

fixed.

[Greg Amy]

Ron, STx are 1985 or later.

STU: Turbo Volvo 5 cylinder in a Miata.
STO: Aston Martin Vanquish V8 in a Mustang.
Ferrari engine in a Fiat or Alfa!
Lambo V-12 in a Dodge Shadow!

See, I LOVE THESE!!! Hey, if someone really wants to race a 3100-pound Miata with a 38mm TIR, or a 3300-pound Fiat, Alfa, or - God forbid - Dodge Shadow against the Vipers, Corvettes, supercharged Acura NSXs, and Ferraris, I say bring it on!!!! That's what this class is all about! 'Cause when it comes down to it, you're gonna be hard-pressed to find a better combo than the factory provided...

But if you're turned on by the above combos...do it!

GA

[tderonne]

I worked on the modular Focus. Drove it a lot. It was a 3700 pound car. Just like a Mustang that we took the driveline from. It worked better in a Mustang.

On the other hand, an LS powered Solstice.....