September 2011 Fastrack

[Knestis]

Oh for freak's sake. I SO want to file a protest on one of these now.



K

[jjjanos]

Oh for freak's sake. I SO want to file a protest on one of these now.



K

[Kirk ON]It's up to us to police the class. We allow the IT that we are willing to allow[/kirk off]

[Ron Earp]

I thought:

[KIRK ON]We get the IT that we want[/KIRK OFF]

I'm still trying to get that IT!

[Knestis]

Is this the point where someone calls me a "homo?"

K

[Chip42]

Oh for freak's sake. I SO want to file a protest on one of these now.



K

I'll pay the fee. I'd really like to see a COA ruling on this as the rules stand today.

[Matt93SE]

I thought:
[KIRK ON]We get the IT that we want[/KIRK OFF]
I'm still trying to get that IT!

Ron, come to the dark side and run STU......



Chip, a Nissan power steering system will NOT function properly when you stop driving the pulley. I've lost a pump on track and I've lost a belt on track on two different Nissans (and pushed/towed a lot of non-running ones). It would be absolutely impossible to run at race speed with a disabled pump on a Nissan. Can you physically turn the wheel? YES. but you'd better not be trying to do it quickly.

[jjjanos]

Is this the point where someone calls me a "homo?"

K

No, but aren't you the one who says that if a person thinks something is illegal and knows of someone doing the illegal thing, then it is that person's duty to self-police the class?

[Greg Amy]

Allow me - admittedly, after having been a factor in stirring up this hornet's next - to remind participants of a quote:

"Avoid having your ego so close to your position that when your position falls, your ego goes with it. " - Colin Powell

When the argument becomes less about my position on a matter, and more about trying to save face, then maybe it's time for me to sit back and let things peter out. Getting emotional about a debate is probably a good indication that I'm approaching that point. "Winning an argument on the Internet" is not all that it's cracked up to be (I don't even think you get an ashtray for it).

Food for thought.

GA, sitting this one out.

[Andy Bettencourt]

I now these deabtes seem trivial to some but in the end, it's great for people to see how people read rules, how they disect them and some even use this as a reminder that some rules don't say what they thought they said all along (see emissions thread).

Greg, it's not about winning or losing. It's about learning for us all. Kirk and I are trying to see if anyone can cite a rule that we are missing that allows the result of this free-wheeling pulley. No ego issues, just trying to come to a solution.

For me, I sense a 'it's legal, people are doing it, so lets make it specifically legal in the ITCS' undertone...and I want to dispell the fact that the RESULT is legal hense the premise for that type of rule change is bad.

Besides I think it's creep in it's most natural form.

[Chip42]

Chip, a Nissan power steering system will NOT function properly when you stop driving the pulley. I've lost a pump on track and I've lost a belt on track on two different Nissans (and pushed/towed a lot of non-running ones). It would be absolutely impossible to run at race speed with a disabled pump on a Nissan. Can you physically turn the wheel? YES. but you'd better not be trying to do it quickly.

ok - that's good info, and corrects my earlier statements. What I really want to know is about your success with underdriving as a means to reduce shaft RPM and power loss, and to improve reliability. have you? to what degree? and fwiw I know hondas and at least some mazdas work just fine with the PS belt cut.

[tderonne]

Don't need to protest.

Just write a letter asking for a new rule to allow putting a bearing in the P/S pulley.

Answer will tell you what you need to know.

[Chip42]

Don't need to protest.

Just write a letter asking for a new rule to allow putting a bearing in the P/S pulley.

Answer will tell you what you need to know.

those are two different processes reviewed by different people...

[Knestis]

What's frustrating - beyond creep, from which I've tried to separate myself - is that just for the sake of this conversation, everyone is looking at the magician's waving right hand (the pulley) while the real issue is in his left hand going to his pocket (the pump).

Someone - ANYONE - forget the silly damned pulleys for a second and tell us what rule allows someone to make the power steering system stop working the way it was designed to by the manufacturer.

As a culture we get so "gee whiz" about the clever cheats, and so caught up in the paddock lawyer (again, sorry Jeff) word games, that we forget about the bigger picture. And it ultimately concerns me that the ITAC seems as susceptible to this as the rest of the IT membership.

And to Tim's suggestion - that scares me. A lot. The answer at this point MIGHT just be, "Well that's awfully complicated. Let's just let everyone loop the hoses."

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

Chip,

I am not PS expert but I wonder if those Honda and Mazda racks 'work' because they have non-powered siblings. Is there such thing as a 'powered rack' and a 'power-assisted rack'?

I know for me, I just use the smaller and lighter pullyes to try and reduce rotating mass. My main goal wasn't to underdrive anything, but I have no PS pump either.

[jjjanos]

Someone - ANYONE - forget the silly damned pulleys for a second and tell us what rule allows someone to make the power steering system stop working the way it was designed to by the manufacturer.

Alternate water pump, alternator, power steering, and crankshaft pulleys of any diameter or material may be used.

I change the diameter of the pulley on the power steering pump, the system no longer works as designed by the manufacturer correct?

[jjjanos]

Is there such thing as a 'powered rack' and a 'power-assisted rack'?

Silicon implants would be a powered rack.
Miracle bra would be a power-assisted rack.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Alternate water pump, alternator, power steering, and crankshaft pulleys of any diameter or material may be used.

I change the diameter of the pulley on the power steering pump, the system no longer works as designed by the manufacturer correct?

IIRC the rules prohibits us from disabling specifically.

[Bill Miller]

Silicon implants would be a powered rack.
Miracle bra would be a power-assisted rack.

Now THAT was funny! Jeff, I'll have you know I just bought this monitor that's now covered in coffee!


Lots of points, covering too many pages. I'll try to hit them in order.

Jeff (Young)

What everybody seems to leave off of the Roffe Corollary, is that while yes, if it says you can, you can, so long as it does not perform a prohibited function. That's a pretty big restriction on IISYC,YC.

Andy,

Marty is right, this was back when things had to be done w/in the stock, unmodified housing, and all connections had to be made with the stock, unmodified connector. There was never any allowance to add a vacuum line just because you were able to stuff a MAP sensor into the stock box. You used the weasel-words of it being a vacuum line and not an electrical line to justify it. You didn't seem to be so big on having people show you rules that allowed that mod.


Kirk,

"Modifications shall not be made unless authorized herein. No permitted component/modification shall additionally perform a prohibited function or result in a change not otherwise specifically allowed by these rules."

You're falling into the trap of trying to tighten up a rule w/ additional verbiage, when the existing language is already adequate enough. The rule already states that only authorized modifications are allowed. It also already states that those modifications cannot perform a prohibited function. Anything that is no specifically authorized is prohibited. Your added section just restates the second sentence. No need for extra words, as they don't clarify anything.

I feel like I'm shouting into the same vacuum, Andy. We're so busy parsing out words, some of us aren't reading the pertinent paragraphs.

** No allowance exists to DISABLE the pump

** The INTENT statements makes it clear that this means it must not be disabled

** Pulley cleverness disables the pump

Ergo, while the PULLEY might - or might not - be legal, disabling the pump is clearly not in compliance with the intent regulation. Look over here guys! Here's your problem...!!

DING! DING! DING! No more calls please, we have a winner.

Oh for freak's sake. I SO want to file a protest on one of these now.

So send the $250 in for a rules clarification. Would seem to be a pretty simple letter:

"Is it allowed to substitute a free-wheeling pulley for the pulley of any required engine accessory (e.g. alternator, water pump, power steering pump (where no manual steering option was available)), that effectively transfers no power from the drive belt to the accessory?"

Soup.

[Knestis]

^
That.

EDIT

...You're falling into the trap of trying to tighten up a rule w/ additional verbiage, when the existing language is already adequate enough. The rule already states that only authorized modifications are allowed. It also already states that those modifications cannot perform a prohibited function. Anything that is no specifically authorized is prohibited. Your added section just restates the second sentence. No need for extra words, as they don't clarify anything. ...

Fair enough. An equally good - arguably better - answer would be to get rid of all "prohibitions" in the rules, and ditch the "No permitted component/modification shall additionally perform a prohibited function" bit. If there were no functions specifically prohibited, that clause would be pointless.

K

[erlrich]

Chip, a Nissan power steering system will NOT function properly when you stop driving the pulley. I've lost a pump on track and I've lost a belt on track on two different Nissans (and pushed/towed a lot of non-running ones). It would be absolutely impossible to run at race speed with a disabled pump on a Nissan. Can you physically turn the wheel? YES. but you'd better not be trying to do it quickly.

ok - that's good info, and corrects my earlier statements. What I really want to know is about your success with underdriving as a means to reduce shaft RPM and power loss, and to improve reliability. have you? to what degree? and fwiw I know hondas and at least some mazdas work just fine with the PS belt cut.

I find this interesting, because we had a driver in the DC region who bought an ITA 240SX a couple of years ago that had been raced for a number of years with no power steering. He ran it for a season and a half that way, until someone said something about it and he re-installed the pump & lines. He's not a particularly large guy, so I can't imagine he would have continued to drive it had it been that much of a handful. Also, the car won quite a few races (back in the pre-AJ/Price days) so it didn't seem to make too much difference.